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Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:22 pm

empathy.


That's just a fancy word for "Socialist". The Right decided this human quality was a bad thing when Sotomayer used it. No going back now.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Kenneth Burns » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:27 pm

So wait, President Obama lacked empathy until May 9, 2012, when he came out in favor of gay marriage? Maybe this is bigger than partisan wrangling.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Ducatista » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:33 pm

kurt_w wrote:Matthew Yglesias gets this exactly right (underlining mine):

Senators basically never have poor kids. That's something members of congress should think about. Especially members of congress who know personally well that realizing an issue affects their own children changes their thinking.

Oof, yes, he said a mouthful.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby kurt_w » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:43 pm

Ducatista wrote:
kurt_w wrote:Matthew Yglesias gets this exactly right (underlining mine):

Senators basically never have poor kids. That's something members of congress should think about. Especially members of congress who know personally well that realizing an issue affects their own children changes their thinking.

Oof, yes, he said a mouthful.


OK, like most MY posts the writing is contorted and occasionally garbled. But I was agreeing with his point, not the way he expressed it.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Ducatista » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:47 pm

kurt_w wrote:OK, like most MY posts the writing is contorted and occasionally garbled. But I was agreeing with his point, not the way he expressed it.

No, no, "he said a mouthful" as in, he conveyed a very big idea in that short paragraph. And "Oof" as in, I'd never thought of it that way, though it now seems obvious.

So: I was the contorted and garbled one.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby minicat » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:23 pm

wack wack wrote:The absurd lack of empathy on the right is damaging to this country and it should not be ignored. It should be pointed to and called out at every opportunity.


This.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Zoti Bemba » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:25 pm

Kenneth Burns wrote:So wait, President Obama lacked empathy until May 9, 2012, when he came out in favor of gay marriage? Maybe this is bigger than partisan wrangling.

It seems to me that he managed to change his mind based on empathy alone (and, o.k., perhaps some political calculation -- but wasn't he already supporting civil unions within some moderate Democrat time frame? So marriage wouldn't have been a huge step) Unless something's up with Sasha or Melia that we haven't heard about, yet.

kurt_w wrote:
And Kevin Drum also gets it exactly right, but in a very different way:

Personal experience always touches us more deeply than facts and figures, and in the case of gay marriage we all knew this was how progress would be made. People would see gay characters on TV and shed a little bit of their discomfort. They'd learn that old friends are gay and decide they wanted to stay friends anyway. They'd learn their children are gay, and decide that they still wanted the best for them, even if that means supporting same-sex marriage.

Too bad peoples' children don't regularly turn out to be a different race or ethnic group -- then we might finally get somewhere.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:27 pm

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... t=My+Yahoo

Well good to know homophobia is still alive and well in the Republican party. Sounds like Mr. Portman may have a primary on his hands.

The idea that allowing gay marriage effects anyone else marriage let alone "redefines it" is a fucking laugh riot. Also a fun leap of logic here from some right wing neanderthal who's name I don't care to remember:

“If my relative is a bank robber, should I change my views on bank robbery?” he asked. “If we redefine honesty to include bank robbery, that’s the equivalent of redefining marriage to include same-sex couples.”
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Kenneth Burns » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:34 pm

Zoti Bemba wrote:
Kenneth Burns wrote:So wait, President Obama lacked empathy until May 9, 2012, when he came out in favor of gay marriage? Maybe this is bigger than partisan wrangling.

It seems to me that he managed to change his mind based on empathy alone (and, o.k., perhaps some political calculation -- but wasn't he already supporting civil unions within some moderate Democrat time frame? So marriage wouldn't have been a huge step) Unless something's up with Sasha or Melia that we haven't heard about, yet.

So he started to be empathetic ... when? 2011? 2010? Presumably sometime after 2008, when he said marriage is "between a man and a woman." For a long time Democrats did not exactly lead on this issue, empathy or no empathy.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Zoti Bemba » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:09 pm

Kenneth Burns wrote:So he started to be empathetic ... when? 2011? 2010? Presumably sometime after 2008, when he said marriage is "between a man and a woman." For a long time Democrats did not exactly lead on this issue, empathy or no empathy.

Empathy is one thing, politics is another. I honestly could not tell you what Obama thought the legal rights of same sex couples ought to be in 2008 but his statement about marriage always struck me as political CYA from a very cautious candidate who wanted to look very safe to middle-of-the-road America. But then I think states should perform civil unions for everybody (because it's a legal contract, darn it! Leave marriage to the churches), so what do I know.

I'm more impressed by Obama's repeal of DADT, which came out of nowhere and did not seem to be politically expedient at the time. Again, having nothing to do, as far as I know, with either of his daughters coming out. Which, again, suggests some ability to empathize with the hardships of people who are not related to him. Please do correct me if I am wrong about that -- it's not my issue so I am only picking up or remembering details from here and there.

As for Democrats leading the way, it seems to me that some did and most let them. As with many issues, Republican, Democratic, liberal or conservative. The people who care passionately fight and the rest sit back to see what happens, and join in if things seem to be going their way. Why would same-sex marriage be different?

Personalities aside, I do hope Sen. Portman's announcement is a sign of a growing bipartisan avalanche. Because really, people! Who someone loves and commits to is their business, not yours.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby snoqueen » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:29 pm

...I think states should perform civil unions for everybody (because it's a legal contract, darn it! Leave marriage to the churches), so what do I know.


Damn. That makes two of us. Must be a mandate.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby rabble » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:44 pm

I don't understand why we have to call them civil unions. Just add your favorite religion to the word "marriage." Catholic marriage, Baptist, Hebrew, Wiccan, Spaghetti Monster, generic Christian, whatever. Or no modifier, just "married."

It rolls off the tongue better than "civil unioned" for some reason.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Zoti Bemba » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:21 pm

What about "hitched"? Or "knotted," as in "tied the knot"? And then there's "ball-and-chained," for the kinky crowd :shock:

I get why the tussle is over "marriage" (because that's the word that's associated with the rights and responsibilities in most states -- anything else is seen as less) but am wary of the way marriage as a legal act is quickly conflated with marriage as a religious ceremony, with attacks, sieges and God's judgement following in short order. If we can just get our language straight, reason and harmony will follow, right?

O.K., maybe not. If the people who want to fight for it want it to be "marriage" then I guess "marriage" will be what I vote for whenever I next get the chance. After I unvote for that "no marriage or anything vaguely somewhat slightly resembling marriage" nonsense.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Kenneth Burns » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:42 pm

Seems like it would be nice for gays to have options for a religious wedding if they want one. The Episcopalians already have a liturgy for blessing same-sex unions. One denomination or another probably will devise a same-sex marriage sacrament before too long. Probably the UCC will be among the first.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Meade » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:56 am

Zoti Bemba wrote:Who someone loves and commits to is their business, not yours.

In that case, we should ban marriage altogether.
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