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Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby bdog » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:57 am

Meade wrote:
Zoti Bemba wrote:Who someone loves and commits to is their business, not yours.

In that case, we should ban marriage altogether.

Hear hear! End the discrimination against singles!
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby snoqueen » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:43 am

The Episcopalians already have a liturgy for blessing same-sex unions. One denomination or another probably will devise a same-sex marriage sacrament before too long. Probably the UCC will be among the first.


The Quakers have performed same-sex marriages for decades.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Meade » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:11 pm

bdog wrote:End the discrimination against singles!

I think it's more like favoritism.

After all, under the law, singles have the very same rights as married people do to make public their business of who they love and commit to. Meanwhile, government does favor married individuals with various benefits unavailable to singles.

On the other hand, singles are free to keep their relationships private from the government in ways not available to married people.

So maybe it's a wash.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Kenneth Burns » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:37 pm

snoqueen wrote:
The Episcopalians already have a liturgy for blessing same-sex unions. One denomination or another probably will devise a same-sex marriage sacrament before too long. Probably the UCC will be among the first.


The Quakers have performed same-sex marriages for decades.

Is it sacramental? I don't know what the status of sacraments is in Quakerism.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Meade » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:52 pm

Does Quakerism even have any sacraments? I don't think so.
Also, not all branches of Quakers agree on the issue of homosexuality.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby snoqueen » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:24 pm

I am not exactly sure what you mean by sacraments, so I can't reply to your question. But I know a fair amount about Quakerism having known many Quakers over the years. They don't do communion, baptism, confirmation, or whatever other events appear in mainstream protestantism. They do marriages, they do memorials when people die, and members can individually call for a meeting on any personal matter where they feel they need or want the support of the community.

You are correct in that there are different branches of Quakerism, including some very traditionalist ones that follow "plain dress" (kind of Amish style) and some that say they are not "Christocentric" but rather universalist. It's a bottom-up faith instead of top-down, basically.

The largest Madison Quaker meeting (the one off Monroe Street) has had same-sex marriage for several decades, though.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Kenneth Burns » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:34 pm

The catechism of Episcopalianism, my religion, says the sacraments are "outward signs of inward and spiritual grace, given by Christ," and that the two great sacraments are baptism and communion. Marriage, on the other hand, is one of five "sacramental rites" that "are a means of grace" but "not necessary for all persons." The other four are confirmation, ordination, confession and unction.

The introductory notes to the Episcopal marriage rite begin, "Christian marriage is a solemn and public covenant between a man and a woman." So the current liturgy, which dates to 1979, is clear on who can marry in the sacramental sense. The prayer book is revised from time to time. My sense is the church's new same-sex blessing doesn't rise to sacramental status. Some Episcopalians would probably disagree, which is very Episcopalian.

In Presbyterianism, which I was raised in, there are only two sacraments, baptism and communion. Catholics believe in seven sacraments, right? Episcopalianism is more like 2+5, which is also very Episcopalian.

Having done about 10 seconds' worth of Googling, I see that Quakers indeed "don’t have a custom of performing sacramental ceremonies."
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Huckleby » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:54 pm

Portman deserves no thanks or admiration for his support of gay marriage. We're well past the point where taking such a position requires courage. The point about lack of empathy outside of his own family is legitimate, there is nothing petty or bitter about this observation.

I don't condemn or admire people for their position on either side of the gay marriage issue. I'm glad things are moving in the direction of equal rights.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:13 pm

Huckleby wrote:I don't condemn or admire people for their position on either side of the gay marriage issue. I'm glad things are moving in the direction of equal rights.

I guess that means you don't condemn those who oppose equal rights. Does that lack of condemnation apply, for example, to the racists who opposed black civil rights in the 60s?
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Huckleby » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:27 pm

Henry Vilas wrote: I guess that means you don't condemn those who oppose equal rights. Does that lack of condemnation apply, for example, to the racists who opposed black civil rights in the 60s?


The situations are very different. Redefining marriage as a bond between same-sex couples is a mind-bending paradigm shift that goes against centuries of culture. I am shocked, really, at the speed at which people are accepting it. The inability of many to see marriage through fresh eyes doesn't surprise me in the least.

Equality of races was the nominal standard of our law and society for some time. Ya, reality very different, but the principle was established long ago.

There are many people with good hearts who have just not come around to seeing marriage from a new perspective. They don't see "equal rights" as applicable, anymore than say, polygamy is an issue of equal rights. (I'm not talking about rational arguments here, rather acceptance on an emotional level.)

Two years ago, Barack Obama did not accept gay marriage. Do you think Barack Obama of two years ago is equivalent in any meaningful sense to the racist fighting civil rights in the 1960's?
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:21 am

Huckleby wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote: I guess that means you don't condemn those who oppose equal rights. Does that lack of condemnation apply, for example, to the racists who opposed black civil rights in the 60s?


The situations are very different. Redefining marriage as a bond between same-sex couples is a mind-bending paradigm shift that goes against centuries of culture.

White supremacy was also deeply rooted in Western cultural and had been for many centuries.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Huckleby » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:00 am

Henry Vilas wrote:White supremacy was also deeply rooted in Western cultural and had been for many centuries.


Sure, but the issue of whether whites are supreme in the eyes of the law was already settled, at least in principle, with the civil war. That's a big first step that gay marriage has had to make in a short period of time.

But really, you can't settle this with logical argument, it has more to do with the perceived nature of people who disagree with you. I understand the conservative position on the issues of abortion and gay marriage, and I don't see their positions as totally irrational, or coming from an evil place. So I don't demonize the other side. You may feel differently.

We've talked a lot about empathy deficits in this thread. Empathy also extends to appreciating other points of view, having a generous spirit, within limits.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Meade » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:49 pm

Nice to see Hillary finally - one hour ago and an entire weekend after Rob Portman - came out in favor of same-sex marriage. What a bigot she has been for all these years. Conveniently, her daughter is not gay and so was able to marry (opposite-sex) a few years ago. Why did it not occur to Hillary, at that time, that no one - including her own daughter - is free until we are all free?

Edit for grammar.
Last edited by Meade on Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Ducatista » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:03 pm

Huckleby wrote:The situations are very different.    Redefining marriage as a bond between same-sex couples is a mind-bending paradigm shift that goes against centuries of culture.     I am shocked, really, at the speed at which people are accepting it.    The inability of many to see marriage through fresh eyes doesn't surprise me in the least.

Mind-bending to those who believe that "some religious text says this is wrong, trust us," but less so to others.

And then there's the fact that They Walk Among Us. If Dick Cheney and Rob What'shisknob have taught us anything, it's that it's harder to cling to the idea that gays should never be allowed to marry once you discover that someone you love (or like, or respect) is gay.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:11 pm

Whatever the case, the tides are turning:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/at ... ht-is-over

Opponents of gay rights spoke to a nearly empty room, while supporters had a standing room–only crowd. “We cannot be at war with America on issues of fairness, on issues of equality,” conservative Washington Post blogger Jennifer Rubin says.
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