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Another view on the gun thread

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Another view on the gun thread

Postby you must be joking » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:59 am

I thought I would contribute my own two cents to the gun debate by offering the following observations. Do you think that banning some guns, such as those on the proposed ban lists; or some accessories, such as exended magazines, pistol grips, and so on will cut down on gun crime?

Now lets take that one step furthur. Do any of you think that by even banning all gun sales; confiscating those guns that are out there, (other than police and military) we would stop gun crime?

If you think that either of those ideas will significantly cut down on, or stop gun crime here is why your thinking is simply delusional.

The same Sinaola, Los Zeta and other drug cartels that have been pumping drugs into this country, and responsible for the murder of 60,000+ Mexican citizens will just add banned guns, gun accessories, or guns altogether to their list of items to smuggle into the U.S.

These same cartels are the ones tied to the drug gangs of Chicago who are responsible for the murders of 85-90% of the 500+ people gunned down in Chicago in 2012, (most BTW with handguns, not "assault wepons") .

The supply chain and the infrastructure are already there. There are plenty of willing buyers and sellers to meet the demand. Do you really think that some gang banger from Chicago who is wanted for all sorts of drug related crimes is really going to give a shit about getting busted for having a banned gun or accessory? The only thing that will change is the gang bangers will add illegal gun sales to their list, murdering others in their quest to keep and expand their new market.

And when in the past have such bans ever worked? Prohibition? The war on drugs? Experience has shown that the suggestion that such bans work is but a laughable delusion.
Last edited by you must be joking on Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby Galoot » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:09 am

Yes, and yes.

I don't think guns are going to be confiscated here, leaving them only in the hands of police and the military. But if it were to happen, it would definitely reduce gun crime.

Just look at Japan. They instituted strict gun control back in the early 1970's, and they have fewer than ten gun deaths per year. QED.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby you must be joking » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:31 am

Galoot wrote:Yes, and yes.

I don't think guns are going to be confiscated here, leaving them only in the hands of police and the military. But if it were to happen, it would definitely reduce gun crime.

Just look at Japan. They instituted strict gun control back in the early 1970's, and they have fewer than ten gun deaths per year. QED.


Galoot,

Japan is a totally different country with a totally different culture than the U.S. I don't think our culture will ever mirror that of Japan. But nice try.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby Galoot » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:16 am

You said it couldn't work. It has in the U.K. too--and much of our culture came from there.

So you seem to be saying that in spite of any evidence to the contrary, you'll stick to your claim come hell or high water. How utterly irrational of you. But I'm not surprised.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby rabble » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:05 pm

you must be joking wrote: But nice try.

That demonstrates the extent of your interest in a "discussion."

Why didn't you just say "This is how it is. It's not a debate, I'm just informing you all so you'll know what to say the next time someone asks."
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby gargantua » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:11 pm

Even though the idea of confiscation is a straw man argument, I'll weigh in. A reduction in the number of firearms among the general population would result in a reduction in the number of gun deaths. Law-abiding people are killed or injured in gun accidents. It would also reduce deaths from "crimes of passion"....people who are not career criminals, but in a moment of anger take the life of someone trying to divorce them. Lots of murder-suicides happen because guns make it so easy.

But no one has to worry about large scale confiscation of guns in the US anyway, so the discussion is kind of pointless.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:39 pm

Pew Research's latest data show this:
About a quarter of Americans (24%) say they personally own a gun, rifle or pistol; another 13% say another person in their household has a gun.


http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/ ... op-reason/

(scroll down about 3/5 of the first page to read the part I quoted -- whole report is very interesting though one wonders how many gun people lied to the survey taker, given the paranoia we see on the topic)

The percentage of gun ownership apparently has shrunk over the past few decades (again, who lies?) but absolute number of guns keeps rising, as we can tell by listening to manufacturers and sellers. Thus, fewer people are owning more and more guns.

Every time some story appears that makes guns look bad, there's a big jump in gun sales because gun fans believe there could come a time when their favorites are restricted or confiscated. So, we get hoarding.

Guns are not like drugs, which are consumed, used up, and disappear. Guns are permanent. Both drugs and guns could be traded on a black market, but the markets would look a lot different because drugs are continually produced and consumed while guns are hardware.

If there comes a time of confiscation or a widespread ban (which hardly anybody realistic foresees anytime soon) likely we'd wind up with a black market in guns, as with any forbidden merchandise. The hoarders know this and believe themselves to be positioned well.

But the numbers of owners (or hoarders) aren't demonstrably rising. Even if we can't document the exact numbers of hoarders and owners (due to gun-lobby legislation as well as survey lying) there's a general trend toward decrease:

http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/ ... ographics/

(that's section 3 of the same link, which I quote here:)

There is also a sharp difference in personal gun ownership by age -- 16% of adults under age 30 own a gun, compared with 27% of all adults age 30 and older. However, many young people live in households in which someone else owns a gun.

Roughly three-in-ten (31%) whites own a gun, which is much greater than the rates of gun ownership among blacks (15%) and Hispanics (11%).


So my question is this:

We see a decrease by age, as well as by region of the country and race. Gun ownership tracks Republican, in addition (see same link -- and the Republicans themselves are arguing about what it takes to stay relevant). Simultaneously we see a siege mentality with hoarding, as if the gun owners feel threatened (by trends more than by home invaders, because how many guns does it take to kill a home invader?). They might know something the rest of us aren't so sure of, not yet:

Is gun ownership on a downward trend parallel the way opposition to gay marriage is? That's absolutely tanking, and the demographics are similar if not exactly the same.

Maybe demographic changes are going to take care of questions about the legal and social status of guns in American society same as they're taking care of the legal and social status of gay marriage. (In other words, the more we old white people die off, the faster the change goes.)

At the same time, fewer and fewer gun owners are preparing to sell more and more guns to fewer and fewer buyers, if trends hold. So that hoarding strategy is starting to look shortsighted, depending on your horizon.

Patience, people. Patience.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby wack wack » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:06 pm

you must be joking wrote:I thought I would contribute my own two cents to the gun debate by offering the following observations.


Two cents? If I gave you half a penny for those thoughts you'd owe me quite a bit of change.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby you must be joking » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:31 pm

Thank you snoqueen for your great post. Kind of presents a view all to its own on a persons perception of gun control. With that however I would like to introduce some more points to this subject than previously brought up.

According to the Wisconsin DNR during the 2012 nine day gun deer season there were over 633,000 hunting licenses issued. The DNR figures that the average hunter spent an average of 5 hunting days during that season, that comes out to 3,165,000 hunting days of people walking around the woods and fields of our fine State for the gun deer season alone. All the while armed with guns like a .308 or a 30-30 or a 30.06 caliber rifle or a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs. In that time the DNR reports that there were seven shooting related incidents reported with one incident as fatal.
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/documents/seasonreport.pdf

In that same year, over 500 people were murdered in Chicago. Approx. 85+% of them with a gun. Most notably the murder of Hadiya Pendleton. Hadiya Pendleton was a 15-year-old honor student in Chicago. Police say about 2:20 p.m., a Michael Ward shot at Pendleton and a group of friends in a park a few blocks from her school. Pendleton was struck in the back and killed.

Sad part of this is according to the Chicago Sun Times: ““This incident did not have to occur,” said McCarthy who argued for stricter mandatory minimum sentencing laws for gun offenses. McCarthy said Ward was arrested in 2011 for unlawful use of a fiream and pleaded guilty, for which he was sentenced to two years of probation. Ward was on probation when he allegedly shot Hadiya.”” Garry McCarthy is a Police Supt. with the City of Chicago.

http://www.suntimes.com/18165950-761/ch ... night.html

Same as the 6-month-old girl who was shot multiple times as her father changed her diaper on Monday of last week as well as 7 year old Heaven Sutton who was gunned down while selling snow cones near her house last summer.

So why is it that the good people of Wisconsin can take to the fields and woods of our great state and spend some 3,000,000+ days walking around while heavily armed during the 9 day gun season and only one of them dies from a gunshot wound while 90 miles south of here over 400 people in Chicago get gunned down in the streets largely by handguns?

Perhaps it might not be the fact that so many of us in Wisconsin own guns. Perhaps it might be a question of culture. Wisconsin has a gun culture, one that respects the use of guns. Many parts of Chicago do not.

Perhaps this may be the reason why that is from an article titled: “ Mexico's Gun Supply and the 90 Percent Myth”

Here is a synopsis of that article. There is a lot of military-grade weaponry that is not available to the general public in the U.S. but is illegally available in Mexico. This includes a lot of automatic rifles and machine guns. These types of weapons used by the cartels come from the international arms market. That as a part of that market, China is now a source for those arms the cartels use.
One can see “…the same economic law of supply and demand that fuels drug smuggling into the United States also fuels gun smuggling into Mexico.”

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209 ... rcent-myth

Yet both Mexico and Chicago have strict gun laws. According to Wikipedia, Mexican citizens are limited to what kind of fire arm they can legally purchase and only after an extensive background check they can legally purchase their gun from only one gun store in the entire country.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico

In Chicago as well as the rest of the State of Illionios you cannot legally open or
concealed carry a gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Illinois

Chicago itself has even more restrictive gun laws: http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/ ... D_8-20-170

Still, there were over 500 people murdered in Chicago last year approx. 440 of them by guns.

Why? Maybe the reason why is the illegal drug trade. That is why I believe that even going as far as gun confiscation will not solve the problem of gun crimes. The real problem is the illegal drug trade, not guns.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby Sandi » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:50 pm

I think gun registration is also as much for revenue as purported safety. From the wiki link posted by "you must be kidding."

The city of Chicago requires registration of firearms. Residents must complete a firearm safety course, pass a background check including fingerprinting, and pay a $100 permit fee which is renewed every three years. Registration of any handgun assumes an additional one time fee of $15.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby DCB » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:06 pm

you must be joking wrote:Why? Maybe the reason why is the illegal drug trade. That is why I believe that even going as far as gun confiscation will not solve the problem of gun crimes. The real problem is the illegal drug trade, not guns.

For all the effort you put into your analysis, you seem to be unaware that nobody is talking about confiscation of all the guns.

From what I understand, all the serious proposals are just trying limit some guns from some people. Background checks might help capture drug dealers, don't you think?

With reasonable restrictions, hunters will be able to continue hunting.

The NRA thinks that even domestic abusers should be allowed to have guns. That seems a little extreme, don't you agree?
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby you must be joking » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:26 pm

DCB wrote:
you must be joking wrote:Why? Maybe the reason why is the illegal drug trade. That is why I believe that even going as far as gun confiscation will not solve the problem of gun crimes. The real problem is the illegal drug trade, not guns.

For all the effort you put into your analysis, you seem to be unaware that nobody is talking about confiscation of all the guns.

From what I understand, all the serious proposals are just trying limit some guns from some people. Background checks might help capture drug dealers, don't you think?


DCB,

So no one is talking about a ban on guns? Read this from a 2004 edition of SF Gate. http://web.archive.org/web/201106040337 ... 5EQ6B1.DTL
""In the House, HR2038 has been introduced by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y. Instead of a "reauthorization" of the earlier ban, McCarthy wants to ban millions more guns and begin a backdoor national registration scheme. All told, HR2038 is a giant step closer to the goal stated by the assault-weapons ban sponsor, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., on CBS "60 Minutes": "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them -- Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in -- I would have done it."" This 60 minutes interview was from 1995. So an outright ban on most guns and or national gun registration was in order way back in 1995. Gun registration as you might know was one of the tools Hitler used to confiscate the guns of anyone he thought he might have to put in a concentration camp.

But then don't expect the likes of Ms. Diane and her ilk to go without packing heat themselves or having the personal protective services of those who do. This taken from the Independent Journal Review article by Kyle Becker on 26, Jan 2013
"Busted: Gun Control Legislator Dianne Feinstein Discusses Why She Concealed Carried Firearms"
http://www.ijreview.com/2013/01/32591-b ... -firearms/

Here is also an article from "The Blaze" doing a little truth checking of Ms. Diane and her claims about gun violence.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02 ... l-hearing/
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby Detritus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:32 pm

you must be joking wrote:So no one is talking about a ban on guns? Read this from a 2004 edition of SF Gate....

I guess it all depends on what your definition of "is" is, then?
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby rabble » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:58 pm

I admit, it's true that in 1995 someone talked about how they couldn't get enough votes for a ban that might have resulted in a request to turn guns in. And then in 2004 they talked about how it was talked about in 1995.

And Hitler talked about banning guns before he confiscated guns.

Damn.

But you know, I'm not sure 2004 counts because in 2004 they weren't really talking banning guns. They were talking about the fact that people had talked about it back in 95. So I don't think that's a technical talking about banning, it's talking about the people who talked about banning.

We should talk about this.
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Re: Another view on the gun thread

Postby Mad Howler » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:53 am

Here is another view on this sustained preoccupation with firearms; it is a very large steaming pile of mass distraction.

I point to the link below to illustrate how I perceive this weapon of mass distraction is coming to a head. Before you choose to look let me tell you why I think it relevant. The story out of Cyprus is odd given the massive money laundering accomplished on that island by successful poachers of a someone's elses commons, needless to say the Cyprian economy hasn't broadly benifited. What I have found interesting over the last days is that those who really gotta have that AR15, really think they better get their money out of the banks. This thinking, no doubt, helped along by bits like this:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03 ... the-world/
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