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Guest Workers

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Guest Workers

Postby rabble » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:23 am

Bludgeon wrote:All the fuss lefties make about semantics, I use the word "workers" to try to find a nice way to describe the new nationalized demographic that are about to...jump in line in front of everyone

See what happens when you try to be nice? Damn leftists.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:34 am

peripat wrote:To be fair, a lot of those workers are skilled tech types, you know, the kind of workers employers claim they can't find without going out of the country

But they aren't the poor border hoppers. The skilled tech types are documented.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Detritus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:31 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
peripat wrote:To be fair, a lot of those workers are skilled tech types, you know, the kind of workers employers claim they can't find without going out of the country

But they aren't the poor border hoppers. The skilled tech types are documented.

Actually, no, often they aren't. A good percentage of undocumented workers have overstayed their visas--they came here legally as tourists or students or whathaveyou, found work, and stayed. The last estimate I found with a lazy google search, from 2010, was 40% of undocumented workers overstayed legal visas.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:53 pm

pjbogart wrote:Fitting that his first post is of Don Quixote jousting with a windmill.

So here we go again. Racism and fear-mongering. A very specific outreach to poor white folks who hate affirmative action because they're convinced that their B- in Geometry would have snuck them into Harvard if not for all the Negroes (and now Mexicans) who took their spot. See? All of your problems in life are the fault of minorities stealing your lunch. It would actually be humorous if it wasn't so effective.

A very specific outreach indeed.

I'm surprised more liberals haven't stopped to consider the real ethical implications of the amnesty they want and the drastic expansion they want, of existing diversity programs. Instead progressives are just sort of willfully capering towards what amounts to a human atrocity.

Q: What makes it "very specific"?

A: "Equality" laws, rules and policies themselves make it "very specific" because they are very specific about who is protected and who is not. Specifically: male + white + not gay = not protected = pariahs.

Not protected = cost companies more to hire via less diversity tax credits and more anti-diversity fees and fines from a newly, very aggressive federal government.

Amnesty without reforming "affirmative action"/"equal opportunity" laws, rules, policies = ten million new citizens who every unemployed not-gay white guy you know gets to wait in line behind for a job. It's not fear mongering - it's the law. Typical of the left to single out a group, then blame that group for being "very specific".

Pariah: a person driven out of a group or community; member of a low caste; an outcast.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby snoqueen » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:21 pm

I'm surprised more liberals haven't stopped to consider the real ethical implications of the amnesty they want and the drastic expansion they want, of existing diversity programs. Instead progressives are just sort of willfully capering towards what amounts to a human atrocity.


At first I couldn't make any sense of this paragraph at all and figured it was just another missive from the parallel reality of talk radio, the essential belief being "brown people are taking away the jobs of white people and this is a human atrocity."

But then I thought, he's capable of unpacking this line of bull, so let's look at it a little harder.

First off, the brown people have not moved to where jobs AREN'T. They're acting in their own self-interest and have moved to where jobs could be found and employers would hire them. Further, they did not cause white people to be thrown out of work, they filled open jobs white people were not filling for one reason or another. (Do not forget the employers for these jobs were largely white people, either.)

In one example, the brown people did not move to rural West Virginia and cause white coal miners to lose their jobs. The coal mine jobs were already lost due to other economic forces and changes. For good reason, the brown people did not move there.

In another example, if brown people moved to where landscaping and roofing jobs were available (mainly from white employers), they were likely not causing white people to be thrown out of those jobs. Mostly, they were taking jobs white people did not apply for (because the wages were far too low, even below minimum, or the work did not suit their skill set). The white people, who were citizens, realized receiving welfare or some other support paid better than the roofing job and, acting in rational self interest, chose the support. That left undocumented persons to fill the jobs.

In neither of those examples did brown people take the jobs of white people. Either the jobs were not there anyway, or the white people made a different choice.

You can't make a reasonable argument by aggregating West Virginia, Texas, Georgia, and a whole bunch of other states into the same labor pool, either. Just because some national-scale statistics show white people are not working doesn't mean somehow brown people took their jobs. The brown people could have been 2000 miles away. Seen another way, the jobs could have been 2000 miles away and the white people could have preferred not to move so far.

And if you think white people being on unemployment or welfare is in itself a human atrocity, you really need to get some perspective. I'm more of the opinion shooting at people trying to cross a border (even illegally) is a human atrocity. That's what they did before the Berlin Wall fell, if you recall.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:00 pm

snoqueen wrote:
I'm surprised more liberals haven't stopped to consider the real ethical implications of the amnesty they want and the drastic expansion they want, of existing diversity programs. Instead progressives are just sort of willfully capering towards what amounts to a human atrocity.

At first I couldn't make any sense of this paragraph at all and figured it was just another missive from the parallel reality of talk radio, the essential belief being "brown people are taking away the jobs of white people and this is a human atrocity."

But then I thought, he's capable of unpacking this line of bull, so let's look at it a little harder.

@Snow, I'm happy to talk to you about any aspect of this argument but as to be clear and while I appreciate your response, you're talking apples I'm talking oranges. Specifically, you're addressing the complaint that immigrants are taking jobs and there's merit in your reasoning at least in the context of your example.

However, the disparity I mean to address is that, once legal, under current diversity protocols, these ten million new citizens come into the workforce not with an "equal shot", but "first dibs" on the jobs that are out there -- amid existing unemployment levels.

First dibs on: the job - the raise - the promotion. Companies are either rewarded or penalized significantly for the number of demographics represented on their payroll. In a world where Elizabeth Warren gets a high profile Harvard job for only pretending to be Native American, ten million real Hispanic Americans are going to tax credit their way into displacing quite a lot of would-be professionals.

And so I brought up a great article written by your own Democratic Party's Senator Jim Webb from Virginia, because I feel like his reiterated point has significant bearing on the issue of amnesty:

Dem. Sen. Jim Webb wrote:In an odd historical twist that all Americans see but few can understand, many programs allow recently arrived immigrants to move ahead of similarly situated whites whose families have been in the country for generations. These programs have damaged racial harmony. And the more they have grown, the less they have actually helped African-Americans, the intended beneficiaries of affirmative action as it was originally conceived.

I find this ^ to be a really important article; to me it's one of the defining questions we face here in the 21st century.

I really can't believe we're at a point where we would consider reforming the one without addressing the other. They are very much connected. At a time when stepped up diversity enforcement has become a very visible priority, what is the proposition? That we have unlimited jobs to pass around, here's plenty for everybody? In reality we're taking one group and putting them ahead of another. Who gets to have the job? Who gets to be promoted? On what basis? The content of his character?
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Huckleby » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:44 pm

Bludgeon, it has never occurred to me to connect the issues of affirmative action and immigration. This seems to be your focus. Although I disagree with some aspects of affirmative action, especially college admissions, I really don't see many areas of employment where white males are actually suffering, immigration or not.

The ship has sailed. The 12 million undocumented hispanics are going to be integrated into America, even if this latest immigration bill fails. (Which frankly would not be a bad thing, the way the bill is turning out)

It's more interesting to look at specifics of how things could/should play out rather than rehash the same old ideological generalities of whether immigration is good or bad. Lots is happening, we need to move past arguments from Bush years.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby DCB » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:53 pm

Bludgeon wrote:. In a world where Elizabeth Warren gets a high profile Harvard job for only pretending to be Native American, ten million real Hispanic Americans are going to tax credit their way into displacing quite a lot of would-be professionals.
This is so stupid I got dumber just reading it.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Huckleby » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:18 am

I wouldn't say what Bludgeon is saying is dumb, exactly. He's just wildly off on the facts, at least as I understand the world.

Conservative media is full of stories of women and minorities getting unfair advantage over white males. Some of the anecdotes are undoubtedly true, but on the whole I suspect a distortion of reality.

Conservatives and liberals live in different worlds with different sets of "facts."

In my work experiences, I haven't seen a lot of cases where women or minorities were discriminated against. On the other hand, I've seen almost no instances where affirmative action was oppressive. (The exception would be in academic hiring in engineering field, Professorships are so rare, diversity so poor, that white males really are at an extreme disadvantage.)
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Leroy Gates » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:29 am

People miss the point when they pretend this issue is about brown people taking white people's jobs. Illegal immigrants are a bigger threat to brown people's jobs than anybody else's. Of course this doesn't fit the simple liberal mindset. Look over there, racism! Bad white people, bad.
Last edited by Leroy Gates on Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Huckleby » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:36 am

Leroy Gates wrote:Snoqueen misses the point when she tries to pretend this issue is about brown people taking white people's jobs. Illegal immigrants are a bigger threat to brown people's jobs than anybody else's. Of course this doesn't fit the simple liberal mindset. Look over there, racism! Bad white people, bad.


We're back to the 1860's. The Irish, who were the lowly and abused ethnic group of the era, rioted and rampaged over freed blacks moving north and taking their jobs.

The more things change the more they stay the same. The immigration wave of hispanics really is hardly different from past waves. (Uhh, I get the argument that we now have more social welfare, but that impact has been widely exaggerated.)

It's all going to work out. A country of 350M can EASILY and PROFITABLY absord 15M new people.

BTW, damn interesting editorial from Wash Post:
Marco Rubio sits on the immigration fence
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby kurt_w » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:23 am

I've hired two employees in the past three months, one white man and one Asian-American woman. I assume they're both straight but have no idea and care not at all.

The hiring process for the two was identical. There was no "jumping to the head of the line", no pressure from anyone for me to not hire the white guy. Bludgeon's paranoid rantings in this thread might as well be dispatches from the moon, as far as my experience goes.

But what he's doing actually has a long and sordid history right here on Earth. He's trying to stir up resentment and hatred among whites, partly because that's what motivates him personally (so it feels "right" to him) and partly because that's how his branch of the conservative movement and the Republican party have been operating in recent decades and it's become a habit.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby kurt_w » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:07 am

Huckleby wrote:The exception would be in academic hiring in engineering field, Professorships are so rare, diversity so poor, that white males really are at an extreme disadvantage.

And yet, despite that "extreme disadvantage", I see white males being hired all the time for faculty positions in STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, math).

Like, er, me. This supposed "extreme disadvantage" that I labor under as a white male doesn't seem to have impinged my career at all.

I can think of eight new STEM faculty who have offices within 100 meters of mine and who were hired during the last five years. Seven of the eight are white men. One is a white woman. This is at one of the top research universities in America.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Bludgeon » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:58 am

Huckleby wrote:Bludgeon, it has never occurred to me to connect the issues of affirmative action and immigration. This seems to be your focus. Although I disagree with some aspects of affirmative action, especially college admissions, I really don't see many areas of employment where white males are actually suffering, immigration or not.

The ship has sailed. The 12 million undocumented hispanics are going to be integrated into America, even if this latest immigration bill fails. (Which frankly would not be a bad thing, the way the bill is turning out)

It's more interesting to look at specifics of how things could/should play out rather than rehash the same old ideological generalities of whether immigration is good or bad. Lots is happening, we need to move past arguments from Bush years.

The white working class is already suffering - a lot. They are already trying to feed their families on jobs that pay less than a third of the ones they got laid off from. Manufacturing jobs have shut down there's little left for them but paltry service jobs. They get paid less and their money is worth less. I'm sure they will love to sit down with a bunch of dicks who work at cushy university jobs and sing kum ba yah about how we all need to "move past" these grievances because the planet has been ideologically healed by this Hannibal Lecter of a messiah the Democrats like to call president. Dude's not here to help; dude's here for revenge.

To wit, when it comes right down to it, all you in your comfy, nestly public sector jobs, particularly those at the university, really believe that working class Americans have had it "too good" before the recession. The recession means almost nothing to you personally, but you think it's awesome that gas prices are so high, and you get a special thrill when you watch the hard working class individuals who dedicated their lives to their work, shrink from the middle class and fall into what you consider a more 'socially just' 3rd world disparity. And if we can use amnesty initiatives and diversity protocols to legislate the white working class into economic and political obscurity, all the better.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby kurt_w » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:26 am

Bludgeon wrote:The white working class is already suffering - a lot. They are already trying to feed their families on jobs that pay less than a third of the ones they got laid off from. Manufacturing jobs have shut down there's little left for them but paltry service jobs.

No kidding. But instead of putting the blame where it belongs, and trying to fix the problems, your answer is to try to enrage people against one of the few groups in the country that's even worse off than the white working class.

Nice.
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