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The gentrification of the second amendment.

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby nutria » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:18 am

Leroy Gates wrote:Perfect description of the mob that occupied the State Capitol building during the Walker Recall Follies.


Two points about this comment:
1. It implies either you think protesting at the capitol is fine, or that the pro-2nd amendment crowd are loons. Pick one.
2. It is false anyway, as HV implied above. Also note that Walker's administration actually did take away collecitve bargaining rights. In comparison, having a home arsenal won't protect you from the imagined black helicopters.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby DCB » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:30 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Yes, assembling and petitioning the government for grievences is the same as stockpiling firearms to use against government.

totally the same. Except that one of those is sanctioned by the constitution, and typically results in positive changes.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:47 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Where was I? Oh yeah, coming back to Stebben and his way-too-many-slices post:


It's called addressing your specific points.

Bludgeon wrote:deer hunting white people


The only people who hunt are white? WTF does that have to do with anything.

Bludgeon wrote:but the point is, if more Jews had guns, more Jews would have lived.


Completely unable to prove. That's the beauty of the right wing argument. Bring up something you can't prove and it becomes the truth.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby snoqueen » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:40 pm

Oh, I'm just so SURE if some gun-owning Jew in a Polish ghetto had come to the door and shot the SS man, they'd have just left him alone after that.

Of course not. The SS would have burned the whole ghetto down that same night.

This line of argument is not only unprovable, it's totally contrary to what we know about that time in history. The continental army itself could not stop Hitler without outside help over a period of several years, help that included our own army, navy, and air force. Why do you think a small minority of armed urban dwellers had a chance?

Can we please stick to a reasonable discussion of the appropriate role of firearms in the 21st century US and stop making up imaginary arguments?

Incidentally in Wisconsin deer hunters are not only white. A number are Hmong, especially up north.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby fennel » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:46 pm

Stebben84 wrote:That's the beauty of the right-wing argument. Bring up something you can't prove and it becomes the truth.
Clearly it's much worse than that. Often it's a matter of simply stating an easily refutable lie, then repeating it ad nauseum.

If occasionally a promulgator-drone is put on the spot, they dissemble and obfuscate, make arguments about (supposedly well-meaning) intent having greater weight than merely clinical facts, and so on.* Then when the heat is off, they simply revert to repeating the lie.

* Stephen Colbert has thoroughly grokked this M.O.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:56 pm

snoqueen wrote:Oh, I'm just so SURE if some gun-owning Jew in a Polish ghetto had come to the door and shot the SS man, they'd have just left him alone after that.

Of course not. The SS would have burned the whole ghetto down that same night.

This line of argument is not only unprovable, it's totally contrary to what we know about that time in history. The continental army itself could not stop Hitler without outside help over a period of several years, help that included our own army, navy, and air force. Why do you think a small minority of armed urban dwellers had a chance?

Y'know, snow, that's the point - people did get away. A lot of those who are alive today, are so, because they escaped. It's sort of hideously contradictory to listen to a flock of mouth-foaming leftists wax on about the holocaust while simultaneously pronouncing society 'too evolved' to ever need to worry about guarding against that kind of tyranny again.

I am not a gun person, have never owned a gun, don't want to own a gun. But people need to be able to buy them.

You look at places marked by tyranny, you look at people who survived; many of these people are only alive today because they were in some way able to defend themselves in some desperate situation. Many of those survivors lived in countries where the sycophants like many here, laughed at the idea, that it could happen there in "modern times".

You talk about history - please realize, it's more than just a story; more than just broad statements about general trends and likelihoods: it's specific. It's not about whether these groups or these forces could have counter-effected these opposing groups and forces. For civilians, it was about if you could get away; however you could. If you read a lot of stories about the people who did get away, it was because they used everything they had, or could get; money, bribes, friendships, family members, distant acquaintances, thrift, a series of elaborate hiding places, sacrificing, more of all of the above and lastly, hopefully not, self defense.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Donald » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:14 pm

Bludgeon wrote:I am not a gun person, have never owned a gun, don't want to own a gun. But people need to be able to buy them.

You look at places marked by tyranny, you look at people who survived; many of these people are only alive today because they were in some way able to defend themselves in some desperate situation. Many of those survivors lived in countries where the sycophants like many here, laughed at the idea, that it could happen there in "modern times".

You talk about history - please realize, it's more than just a story; more than just broad statements about general trends and likelihoods: it's specific. It's not about whether these groups or these forces could have counter-effected these opposing groups and forces. For civilians, it was about if you could get away; however you could. If you read a lot of stories about the people who did get away, it was because they used everything they could; money, bribes, friendships, family members, distant acquaintances thrift, a series of elaborate hiding places, sacrificing, more of all of the above and lastly, hopefully not, self defense.

Great. What we got here is a chickenhawk against tyranny. Other guys can own guns, but Bludgeon here will stick to just protecting us against the tyranny in his mind. You're a hoot!!!!
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby pjbogart » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:22 pm

Bludgeon wrote:I am not a gun person, have never owned a gun, don't want to own a gun. But people need to be able to buy them.


That's right Bludgeon, you aren't. What you are is a shameless propagandist. You didn't call in to the Ed Schultz show yesterday, did you? I'd swear some guy pretty much recited the last five pages of this thread who said he was from Wisconsin.

Here's the problem. No one is buying what you're selling. Not forons, not lurkers, not even fellow Republicans (they already own what you're selling).

And your insistence that background checks are akin to Naziism basically makes you look like a clown. You aren't aiding your argument, convincing fence-sitters or building support when you lob desperately poor analogies at people who know better... which is pretty much everyone.

Your name wouldn't happen to be Kyle Wood, would it?
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:30 pm

pjbogart wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:I am not a gun person, have never owned a gun, don't want to own a gun. But people need to be able to buy them.

That's right Bludgeon, you aren't. What you are is a shameless propagandist. You didn't call in to the Ed Schultz show yesterday, did you? I'd swear some guy pretty much recited the last five pages of this thread who said he was from Wisconsin.

Here's the problem. No one is buying what you're selling. Not forons, not lurkers, not even fellow Republicans (they already own what you're selling).

And your insistence that background checks are akin to Naziism basically makes you look like a clown. You aren't aiding your argument, convincing fence-sitters or building support when you lob desperately poor analogies at people who know better... which is pretty much everyone.

Your name wouldn't happen to be Kyle Wood, would it?

El no clue-o what you're talking about-o?

LOL all I got was insinuations all strung together with no clear indication of what substance you infer that they're connected to. Other than being able to repeat for the hundreth time I DO NOT FOLLOW PUNDIT PERSONALITY SHOWS, I'm at a loss for any notion of what you're saying.

Seriously, I will be happy to answer any specific question you have. But it's not clear to me how anything you said is in reference to anything I've said, to put it as politely as possible.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby pjbogart » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:57 am

Bludgeon wrote:El no clue-o what you're talking about-o?

LOL all I got was insinuations all strung together with no clear indication of what substance you infer that they're connected to. Other than being able to repeat for the hundreth time I DO NOT FOLLOW PUNDIT PERSONALITY SHOWS, I'm at a loss for any notion of what you're saying.

Seriously, I will be happy to answer any specific question you have. But it's not clear to me how anything you said is in reference to anything I've said, to put it as politely as possible.


Hey guys! Bludgie here claims he doesn't follow pundit personality shows! He must be some sort of psychic if that's the case, because he repeats practically everything they say.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby rabble » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:40 am

pjbogart wrote:Hey guys! Bludgie here claims he doesn't follow pundit personality shows! He must be some sort of psychic if that's the case, because he repeats practically everything they say.

Now hold on. There's other possibilities too. The pundit shows aren't the originators of the talking points, which are repeated across every possible communication source.

He could be picking them up elsewhere and is unaware they're also being propagated through those channels.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Detritus » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:05 am

rabble wrote:
pjbogart wrote:Hey guys! Bludgie here claims he doesn't follow pundit personality shows! He must be some sort of psychic if that's the case, because he repeats practically everything they say.

Now hold on. There's other possibilities too. The pundit shows aren't the originators of the talking points, which are repeated across every possible communication source.

He could be picking them up elsewhere and is unaware they're also being propagated through those channels.

Probably through his fillings.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby snoqueen » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:19 am

You know, we could take an empirical approach here and ask Bludge to cite Holocaust memoirs or survivors who say they wish their group had been armed-up or believe their group should have been armed-up. Maybe a few are out there. Maybe not. It isn't a viewpoint I've ever encountered, but I'm not omniscient.

Most of the escape accounts I've read stress, as Bludge says, factors like personal connections, luck, money, bribes, physical courage and strength, wits, and other whatever-it-takes factors same as we hear about from those who escaped Pol Pot, escaped Vietnam, etc. Some American slave uprisings in the 19th century included guns, but on the whole slaves escaped by subterfuge same as other survivors. In general you'd think guns would just draw attention to people trying to slip away from guards and captors. I don't know how much similarity any of this has to twenty-first century US conditions.

And once again I'm struck by the individualistic content of his message. Are we not discussing social problems that affect everybody and require societal, not just individualistic, solutions?

And I sure would like to know the source of these tinfoil-hat talking points. If it's not talk radio, from where do they emanate? The same idea will crop up all over, be shot down in various ways, and then whoosh -- the group-mind school of guppies magically moves on to the next crackpot notion. How does it work?
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby DCB » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:39 pm

snoqueen wrote:You know, we could take an empirical approach here and ask Bludge to cite Holocaust memoirs or survivors who say they wish their group had been armed-up or believe their group should have been armed-up. Maybe a few are out there. Maybe not. It isn't a viewpoint I've ever encountered, but I'm not omniscient

I'm sure if you asked them "What are top 3 things you would have changed about Nazi Germany", the answers would be
* guns
* guns
* guns
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby DCB » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:53 pm

Bludgeon wrote:You look at places marked by tyranny, you look at people who survived; many of these people are only alive today because they were in some way able to defend themselves in some desperate situation.

If you're really concerned about a tyrannical government, there are a lot things you can do that are actually effective.
You could support Move to Amernd, or oppose the numerous Republican voter suppression bills. You could confront Obama's war on whisteblowers. Or urge the FCC to crack down on media consolidation.
Hoarding AR-15's isn't going to help.

You know who uses guns to oppose what they see as "tyranny"? Nazis
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