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The gentrification of the second amendment.

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:04 pm

snoqueen wrote:You know, we could take an empirical approach here and ask Bludge to cite Holocaust memoirs or survivors who say they wish their group had been armed-up or believe their group should have been armed-up...


Israel.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:22 pm

Leroy Gates wrote:Israel.

Israel has much tougher gun laws and regulations than in the U.S. The per capita gun owndership in the U.S. is much greater than in Isreal. Should we follow their lead?
It is forbidden in Israel to own any kind of firearm, including air pistols and rifles, without a firearms license.
...
To obtain a gun license, an applicant must be a resident of Israel for at least three consecutive years, have no criminal record, be in good health, have no history of mental illness, pass a weapons-training course, and be over a certain age (20 for women who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 21 for men who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 27 for those who did not complete military service or civil service equivalent, 45 for residents of East Jerusalem).

Gun licenses must be renewed every three years and permits are given only for personal use, not for business in the firearms sale while holders for self-defense purposes may own only one handgun, and may purchase a maximum of fifty rounds a year, except for those shot at firing ranges.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby nutria » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:53 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Israel has much tougher gun laws and regulations than in the U.S. The per capita gun owndership in the U.S. is much greater than in Isreal. Should we follow their lead?
It is forbidden in Israel to own any kind of firearm, including air pistols and rifles, without a firearms license.
...


OK, Meade, Ned, etc., I'll take it from here. Israel has more restrictive gun laws than the US. Therefore, Israelis are Nazis.

Drink!
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby snoqueen » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:29 pm

Israel has some of the soundest gun laws I've found yet. Thanks to Leroy for bringing them up again -- it's been linked, or at least discussed previously on the forum.

Let us all drink. Hell, I'll buy Ned and Meade a round for making this all possible.

Incidentally, the source I read said Israelis can have 50 rounds LIFETIME. Yours says per year. Lifetime sounds fine to me (practice is excepted) but if someone wants to clarify this point, have at it.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:26 am

snoqueen wrote:You know, we could take an empirical approach here and ask Bludge to cite Holocaust memoirs or survivors who say they wish their group had been armed-up or believe their group should have been armed-up. Maybe a few are out there. Maybe not. It isn't a viewpoint I've ever encountered, but I'm not omniscient.


Modern, automatic weapon in sight on every street corner, armed to the teeth Israel is a testament to the fact that many survivors of the Holocaust do indeed wish they had been armed.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:43 am

"On the morning of April 19, 1943, the Warsaw ghetto uprising began after German troops and police entered the ghetto to deport its surviving inhabitants. Seven hundred and fifty fighters armed with a handful of pistols, 17 rifles, and Molotov cocktails faced more than 2,000 heavily armed and well-trained German troops supported by tanks and flamethrowers."

You think they wished they had more guns?

"abstract: Contrary to myth of Jewish passivity, many Jews did fight back during the Holocaust. They shut down the extermination camp at Sobibor, rose up in the Warsaw Ghetto, and fought in the woods and swamps all over Eastern Europe. Indeed, Jews resisted at a higher rate than did any other population under Nazi rule. The experience of the Holocaust shows why Jews, and all people of good will, should support the right of potential genocide victims to possess defensive arms, and refutes the notion that violence is necessarily immoral.

This Article examines the record of violent Jewish resistance to the Holocaust. It suggests that Jewish resistance was extensive, and succeeded in saving many lives. The record also explains that a key impediment to even more effective resistance was the lack of firearms, as well as Jewish unfamiliarity with arms during the pre-war years. The article dispels the myth of Jewish passivity during the Holocaust, and the myth that courageous civilians with firearms are helpless against a powerful, genocidal tyranny."
http://www.davekopel.org/2A/Foreign/Arm ... ocaust.htm
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby pjbogart » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:50 am

You're right, Leroy. Democrats are just like Nazis. Let me know when your internment is scheduled, I'd like to be there to wish you a fond farewell.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby rabble » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:49 am

Leroy Gates wrote:Modern, automatic weapon in sight on every street corner, armed to the teeth Israel is a testament to the fact that many survivors of the Holocaust do indeed wish they had been armed.

Yeah, I agree with that.

And Leroy, I want to go on record that I am absolutely in favor of people carrying guns around like that over here as long as they go through exactly the same vetting and licensing that Israel has now.

In fact it would make me VERY happy to have those kinds of regulations and everyone who can't meet them have their firearms confiscated or irrevocably disabled. I would indeed breathe easier.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby DCB » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:52 am

Leroy Gates wrote:"On the morning of April 19, 1943, ..."

You think they wished they had more guns?

No, I think they wished that Germans hadn't been endorsing the Nazi's racist, genocidal agenda for a over a decade.

This must be the drunkest thread ever.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby kurt_w » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:00 pm

Leroy Gates wrote:Modern, automatic weapon in sight on every street corner, armed to the teeth Israel is a testament to the fact that many survivors of the Holocaust do indeed wish they had been armed.

rabble already made this point, but just to emphasize it:

Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias

and this:

Israeli gun laws are much stricter than some U.S. gun advocates suggest

If you think ordinary civilians in Israel are carrying around automatic weapons to protect themselves from their own government, you're nuts. The security forces are armed to protect Israelis from Palestinians. West Bank settlers are armed to protect themselves from the people whose land they're occupying. Ordinary civilians in Israel aren't armed, and guns are very heavily regulated.

Israel limits gun ownership to security workers, people who transport valuables or explosives, residents of the West Bank, and hunters. People who don’t fall into one of those categories cannot obtain a firearm permit. Moreover, Israel rejects 40 percent of firearm permit applicants, the highest rejection rate in the Western world. Both Switzerland and Israel require yearly (or more frequent) permit renewals to insure that the reasons are still applicable.


You want to model US firearms policy on Israel? That would mean making restrictions on gun ownership much tougher.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:53 am

DCB wrote:
Leroy Gates wrote:"On the morning of April 19, 1943, ..."

You think they wished they had more guns?

No, I think they wished that Germans hadn't been endorsing the Nazi's racist, genocidal agenda for a over a decade.

This must be the drunkest thread ever.


If you believe the brave resistance fighters of the Warsaw ghetto didn't wish for more guns then you need to lay off the Kool-Aid.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:10 am

kurt_w wrote:If you think ordinary civilians in Israel are carrying around automatic weapons to protect themselves from their own government, you're nuts.

You want to model US firearms policy on Israel?


I was responding to this historical misfire from Snoqueen, kurt w please show us where I called for modeling Israel or where I said "ordinary civilians in Israel are carrying around automatic weapons to protect themselves from their own government".

Leroy Gates wrote:
snoqueen wrote:You know, we could take an empirical approach here and ask Bludge to cite Holocaust memoirs or survivors who say they wish their group had been armed-up or believe their group should have been armed-up. Maybe a few are out there. Maybe not. It isn't a viewpoint I've ever encountered, but I'm not omniscient.


Modern, automatic weapon in sight on every street corner, armed to the teeth Israel is a testament to the fact that many survivors of the Holocaust do indeed wish they had been armed.


pjbogart wrote:You're right, Leroy. Democrats are just like Nazis. Let me know when your internment is scheduled, I'd like to be there to wish you a fond farewell.


pjbogart please show us where I compared Democrats to Nazi's.

Anybody else want to pretend Jewish fathers watching their children being dragged away by thugs were thanking their lucky stars they weren't armed?
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:44 am

"Over a period of several weeks in October and November 1938, the Nazi government disarmed the German Jewish population. The process was carried out both by following a combination of legal forms enacted by the Weimar Republic and by sheer lawless violence. The Nazi hierarchy could now more comfortably deal with the Jewish question without fear of armed resistance by the victims.
It may be tempting to argue that the possession of firearms by the German Jews would have made no difference, either in the 1938 pogrom or later in the Holocaust, when the majority were deported and then eradicated in death camps. Yet this fatalistic view ignores that the Nazis themselves viewed armed Jews as sufficiently dangerous to their policies to place great emphasis on the need to disarm all Jews. In 1938, it was by no means certain that Jewish armed resistance movements could not develop, and even less certain that individual Jews would not use arms to resist arrest, deportation, or attacks by the Nazis."
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/Halbrook_macro_final_3_29.pdf
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby wack wack » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:12 am

Leroy Gates wrote:"On the morning of April 19, 1943, the Warsaw ghetto uprising began after German troops and police entered the ghetto to deport its surviving inhabitants. Seven hundred and fifty fighters armed with a handful of pistols, 17 rifles, and Molotov cocktails faced more than 2,000 heavily armed and well-trained German troops supported by tanks and flamethrowers."

You think they wished they had more guns?


My guess is they wished the Germans had less training, less tanks and less flamethrowers. No amount of guns would've stopped well-trained Germans with tanks and flamethrowers.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby wack wack » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:15 am

Leroy Gates wrote:Yet this fatalistic view ignores that the Nazis themselves viewed armed Jews as sufficiently dangerous to their policies to place great emphasis on the need to disarm all Jews. In 1938, it was by no means certain that Jewish armed resistance movements could not develop, and even less certain that individual Jews would not use arms to resist arrest, deportation, or attacks by the Nazis."
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/Halbrook_macro_final_3_29.pdf


We keep telling America and the world that North Korea is a significant threat, too, but it's really not true.

I enjoyed your link, though. Everyone needs a good chuckle on a Monday morning.
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