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The gentrification of the second amendment.

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby snoqueen » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:44 am

I think Leroy's recent discovery that Israel has some of the strictest gun laws around is evidence for the very opposite to his apparent theory. The Israelis are very, very cautious about over-arming the general population for the very reason they have (historically, anyway) seen what happens when one part of the population turns on a minority and decides to exterminate them. In a "this will not happen again" spirit, they only allow very carefully selected citizens to own and use arms.

The fact some Jews did arm up at the start of the Holocaust and failed to repel the SS is further evidence arming-up against a powerful government is not workable. Situations like that need to be stopped and rebalanced long before such extremes are reached. Would you suggest Mexican-American communities arm up against the immigration authorities? (Now, there's a marketing opportunity...) How would that make anything better? We're all lucky they've taken a different course.

And while it seems ridiculous to me and most of our readership, the idea people need to arm up against Democrats seems to be floating around pretty freely. It's a false comparison. Neither major party is exactly a minority, and arming one of the two major parties against the other is pretty bad policy. We need to see a justification of this policy before we waste time taking it seriously. Leroy?

An alternative version of the arm-up theory seems to be we ought to arm up against the government. If the constitution and our other founding documents are so important, how can a government of, by, and for the people be a suitable target for arming up? Do you really think you could arm up (and train up) a homebrewed militia that could take out the US Army, with its enormous budget and technology?

If you had your history straight, you'd remember in the American Revolution we were arming up against the British. No analogue to that situation exists today.

So who are we supposed to arm up against now?

It's a marketing plot, Leroy. You're being suckered. None of these arguments holds up against the real world.

(And please read Kurt's links before you keep trying to defend your notion we ought to arm up against the restoration of the Third Reich.)
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:18 am

wack wack wrote: No amount of guns would've stopped well-trained Germans with tanks and flamethrowers.


"The resistance movement in Europe during World War Two played an important part in defeating Nazi Germany's military might. The resistance movement - Europe's secret armies or partisans - gathered intelligence for the Allies, destroyed communication lines, assisted escaped POW's and openly attacked the Germans once the retreats on both the western and eastern fronts had started. Their work was vital for both the Russian's and Allies..."
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/resistance_movements.htm

News flash, Germany lost the war, guns were involved.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby rabble » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:29 am

Leroy Gates wrote:"The resistance movement in Europe during World War Two played an important part in defeating Nazi Germany's military might. The resistance movement - Europe's secret armies or partisans - gathered intelligence for the Allies, destroyed communication lines, assisted escaped POW's and openly attacked the Germans once the retreats on both the western and eastern fronts had started. Their work was vital for both the Russian's and Allies..."
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/resistance_movements.htm

News flash, Germany lost the war, guns were involved.
Huh. Seems like it was only yesterday those resistance groups were "surrender monkeys." Now they're brave patriots. With guns. But they didn't have enough guns then. Therefore we need more guns now. And no background checks. Like Israel.

It's all so clear.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby pjbogart » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:30 am

If you had lived in Germany in 1940, Leroy, would you have joined the resistance or the Nazis?
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby wack wack » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:36 am

Leroy Gates wrote:
wack wack wrote: No amount of guns would've stopped well-trained Germans with tanks and flamethrowers.


"The resistance movement in Europe during World War Two played an important part in defeating Nazi Germany's military might. The resistance movement - Europe's secret armies or partisans - gathered intelligence for the Allies, destroyed communication lines, assisted escaped POW's and openly attacked the Germans once the retreats on both the western and eastern fronts had started. Their work was vital for both the Russian's and Allies..."
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/resistance_movements.htm

News flash, Germany lost the war, guns were involved.


First it was the Jews in the ghetto; that didn't work so you've expanded it to the entire armed resistance of WWII? Yeah, that proves your point.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:15 am

"The Germans had planned to liquidate the Warsaw ghetto in three days, but the ghetto fighters held out for more than a month. Even after the end of the uprising on May 16, 1943, individual Jews hiding out in the ruins of the ghetto continued to attack the patrols of the Germans and their auxiliaries. The Warsaw ghetto uprising was the largest, symbolically most important Jewish uprising, and the first urban uprising, in German-occupied Europe. The resistance in Warsaw inspired other uprisings in ghettos (e.g., Bialystok and Minsk) and killing centers (Treblinka and Sobibor)."
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005188

"THE DAMAGE TO Nazi prestige was enormous..."
"...as the uprising fought on, admiration amongst many ordinary Poles grew. It helped inspire the magnificent workers’ uprising throughout Warsaw in August 1944..."
http://www.socialismtoday.org/75/warsaw43.html
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby wack wack » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:20 am

Where is the part about the ghetto Jews defeating the Nazis?
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:25 am

In response to the none omniscient Snoqueen's "that was then... couldn't happen here." paraphrased

"Is there a larger lesson to learn from the experiences of the liberal Weimar Republic decreeing firearms registration, and the Nazi regime using the records to disarm the Jews? While this does not foretell what will happen, it demonstrates what can happen. Contemporary prohibitionists may argue that this would never happen again anywhere in the world, whether in Europe, Asia, Africa, or the Americas, especially in the United States. Consistent adherents of a “Never Again!” policy – which assumes that what has happened in history, could again happen – would seek policies to help ensure that it does not indeed occur again."
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/Halbrook_macro_final_3_29.pdf
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:31 am

wack wack wrote:Where is the part about the ghetto Jews defeating the Nazis?


By tying up large numbers of German troops that were scheduled to be elsewhere the partisan resistance helped defeat the Nazi's and put an end to the third reich. If you are incapable of understanding basic strategy or appreciating resistance to fascism perhaps you should acquire a hobby more in line with your abilities. Needlework, perhaps.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:38 am

Leroy, I'll ask the same question I asked of BSH in the other gun thread. Have you ever served in the U.S. military? (Of course, BSH didn't answer that question.)

You are delusional as to what an armed U.S. citizenry can do against such a military might. Unlike in Afghanistan, our troops aren't going to leave. What allies throughout the world would a rebelling American citizenry have?
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby wack wack » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:53 am

Leroy Gates wrote:
wack wack wrote:Where is the part about the ghetto Jews defeating the Nazis?


By tying up large numbers of German troops that were scheduled to be elsewhere the partisan resistance helped defeat the Nazi's and put an end to the third reich. If you are incapable of understanding basic strategy or appreciating resistance to fascism perhaps you should acquire a hobby more in line with your abilities. Needlework, perhaps.


What I understand is that the Jews in the ghetto and their small arms had an immeasurably small role in bringing down the Third Reich. So small, in fact, the the effects are good for little more than "folk hero" stories to an oppressed population.

I will take up needlepoint as soon as you present a source designed to do something other than confirm your foolish bias.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby fisticuffs » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:57 am

None of this would matter if Obama wasn't the second coming of Hitler.
Drink!
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby rabble » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:11 am

Leroy Gates wrote:In response to the none omniscient Snoqueen's "that was then... couldn't happen here." paraphrased

"Is there a larger lesson to learn from the experiences of the liberal Weimar Republic decreeing firearms registration, and the Nazi regime using the records to disarm the Jews? While this does not foretell what will happen, it demonstrates what can happen. Contemporary prohibitionists may argue that this would never happen again anywhere in the world, whether in Europe, Asia, Africa, or the Americas, especially in the United States. Consistent adherents of a “Never Again!” policy – which assumes that what has happened in history, could again happen – would seek policies to help ensure that it does not indeed occur again."
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/Halbrook_macro_final_3_29.pdf

Good point. We need be ready with more guns because that would do the trick, because the resistance didn't have enough guns last time, so THIS time, we'll have enough guns.

And then we'll be okay because it's a pretty safe bet the guys in charge of the occupation won't remember WW2, and they won't have any idea how many guns we got, so we'll get the drop on 'em. And them BLAM! Victory!
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Leroy Gates » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:33 am

You have convinced me, it's time to disarm liberals.
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Re: The gentrification of the second amendment.

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:38 am

The Second Amendment was designed to supplement the government, not to overthrow it. It is not a licence for treason.
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