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North Sherman Avenue Proposal

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:49 am

I've been critical of this plan from the day it was announced; however, I respect my neighbors and if they think this will be a good thing, I'm willing to give it a whirl. I do wish that the City would put up some signs reminding bicyclists to follow the law: stay in the bike lane, even if it means stopping for a local delivery vehicle; do not ride 3 abreast so you can stay in the bike lane; signal your turns and yield like any other vehicle. Those types of things to minimize the chances of bike-car accidents. I can't tell you how many near misses I've had on the northside where a bicyclist was just oblivious to the traffic laws. The vast majority of bicyclists are totally cool about it, but the scofflaws are down right dangerous and they ALWAYS act as if the car is at fault. Do they even make bike signs like that??
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:57 am

David, would you expect cars to stop for local delivery vehicles?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:02 am

Absolutely, if there was only one lane Jman. Only other option would be to drive into potentially oncoming traffic.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:05 am

How many businesses on Sherman actually take deliveries from the curb? Almost everybody has a front parking lot.

I see the potential problem but maybe it's not an actual problem.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:07 am

david cohen wrote:I've been critical of this plan from the day it was announced;

I agree with you about the asshole bikers and I think it's gotten to the point that the violators need the same sort of hefty financial motivation to work on their entitlement issues as do many of the drivers on the road.

Are your criticisms of the plan basically the same as Ninja's?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:08 am

david cohen wrote:Absolutely, if there was only one lane Jman. Only other option would be to drive into potentially oncoming traffic.

Seriously? For instance, if the mail is being delivered to steet-side boxes on a two-lane street (one each way) and passing the truck would require crossing the center line, you would expect traffic to que up behing the truck until the single lane was completely passable? You see no need to deviate from the lane to pass stopped vehicles, ever?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:11 am

Sno, the most glaring example would be the bar right after the Sherman/McPherson light. They usually get a delivery that sits in the right lane for 30 minutes since their lot is to small for the beer truck. Hopefully they will change their timing so it's not the usual 430-5pm time slot. UPS stops at homes, but not for more than 2-4 minutes. But when you get down farther on "the strip", most deliveries go into the lots. This same issue will be prevalent with the Metro bus stops blocking the bike lane. I sure hope folks adapt quickly.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:12 am

jman111 wrote:
david cohen wrote:Absolutely, if there was only one lane Jman. Only other option would be to drive into potentially oncoming traffic.

Seriously? For instance, if the mail is being delivered to steet-side boxes on a two-lane street (one each way) and passing the truck would require crossing the center line, you would expect traffic to que up behing the truck until the single lane was completely passable? You see no need to deviate from the lane to pass stopped vehicles, ever?


I see no need for a bike to swerve out into the only lane of traffic to avoid a stopped bus or beer truck. That's my concern- I don't wanna see someone get walloped and I was hoping signage might help make it safer.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:14 am

Nor a car to deviate from a partially-blocked lane?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:56 am

Maybe the tavern can talk the beer truck guy into parking on the side street, and maybe the post office trucks can do the same. (maybe)

The buses, though, are there to stay. On the east side we're used to buses on, say, Jenifer. The buses pull to the curb, but there's enough room for cars and bikes to go around and still be in their own lane. There is, of course, parking on both sides of the street and no designated bike lane so it's not a direct analogue to New Sherman. Jenifer has way less traffic, but its not a bike death trap and it gets plenty of bike traffic of all ages and abilities. It's pretty anarchic, but somehow it works.

New Sherman will have more car traffic, no curbside car parking, and be for those reasons somewhat different. How well it works will depend on density of traffic, not lane stripes or law enforcement. Most likely there's some breaking point after which bike/car crashes become too likely and most bikes refuse to use the route. The more commuters use Packers, the better. I think that's the key. Get people to think of Sherman as a local commercial street not a commuter route.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:25 pm

Just to clarify, the expectation is that the center turn lane (the Two-Way Left Turn Lane, or "TWLTL") is partially used by vehicles needing to deviate from their lane in order to go around stopped vehicles. The city's traffic engineering document for N Sherman (dated Jan 15, 2013) illustrates this explicitly. It follows that bikes are allowed/expected to deviate from the bike lane when it is similarly blocked.

Due diligence is required in either instance, as is always the case when deviating from a traffic lane.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:28 pm

Also, on street parking will be eliminated so curbside stops should be very brief. At that point, it becomes a parking enforcement issue.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:19 pm

david cohen wrote: see no need for a bike to swerve out into the only lane of traffic to avoid a stopped bus or beer truck. That's my concern- I don't wanna see someone get walloped and I was hoping signage might help make it safer.


Every single bike lane I ride on forces me to swerve into traffic(or almost into traffic) and this includes E Wash which is pretty damn wide. When trucks or buses stop on the side of the road they are extra wide and I always have to swerve out of the way, stop, or hop on the sidewalk. So I'm sorry to say this is a completely moot point.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby fennel » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:21 pm

Stebben is right, except that riding on the sidewalk is illegal in some areas. (Probably not on most of Sherman) A bicyclist can legally use any lane that a car can use.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:40 pm

Well I hope you guys are right. I just don't see folks deviating from Sherman as a route to downtown, nor do I see them being extra cautious of sudden bike maneuvers. Maybe after a few months we'll have a better idea how this set up is working out. I might have to call Mr. Deadman and ask him to talk to the beer delivery guy!
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