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North Sherman Avenue Proposal

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Fri May 03, 2013 12:39 pm

massimo wrote:Time will tell, I guess. If Ninja's right, it won't be THAT hard to bring back the Sherman Superhighway, right?


Also, this attitude just disgusts me. These are real people with real families and you're fucking with their livelihoods. They're not just going to magically relocate to Packers, or lay low for a year while everybody figures what a stupid idea this was. They will be gone, then the long, arduous process of building an economy will have to start over from scratch.

But who gives a shit, right?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Fri May 03, 2013 12:43 pm

But the safety of the real people with real families, whom you claim don't reside along the corridor, doesn't matter, right?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby DCB » Fri May 03, 2013 12:44 pm

jman111 wrote:But the safety of the real people with real families, whom you claim don't reside along the corridor, doesn't matter, right?

Apparently 'real people' never bike or walk in that section of town.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby massimo » Fri May 03, 2013 12:46 pm

Ninja wrote:Those businesses are not sustained by day trippers from the Westside dropping in for an occassional pizza or used book, they're sustained by the consistent daily traffic that passes directly in front of them.

This town is so bizarre.

Apparently so. Businesses here are sustained by the traffic that whizzes on by and not by the people who actually step foot in the door. Who knows? Perhaps slowing down some of that traffic will entice those drivers to look around and discover something they've not noticed before.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Fri May 03, 2013 12:48 pm

DCB wrote:Apparently 'real people' never bike or walk in that section of town.

The evidence suggests otherwise. The ones I see every day seem quite real. But, then again, I don't possess that special ninja insight.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Fri May 03, 2013 12:50 pm

My God, it's like arguing with teenagers. Do whatever you want. I'm done.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Fri May 03, 2013 12:52 pm

Ninja wrote:I'm done.

I'm not convinced.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Fri May 03, 2013 12:56 pm

Let's stop and break this down.

The shopping area at the corner of Northport shouldn't be affected at all because its on both Sherman and Northport and its accessibility is not affected.

Businesses at the corner of Aberg (Northgate) are easily accessed via Aberg. Also, the social services building is a destination not a drive-by so it won't be affected. East Transfer Point is right there so bus riders won't be affected. Other stores in Northgate, like the bookstore, are also more destination-type than drive-by (meaning people go there deliberately not because they randomly drove past and stopped on a whim).

At Commercial (Lakewood Plaza) access is similarly convenient, and I'd think bike traffic would be a help to Manna Cafe. Liquor stores are, well, liquor stores. People go to those through thick and thin.

The gas station by the tracks is the closest gas station for most of Maple Bluff so it should be OK, but we'll see. The new PDQ out on Packers Avenue may already have cut into their business, and the PDQ will surely be helped by more traffic on Aberg because it's on the going-home side of the street, not the inbound.

The dentist office and other small businesses near the Commercial intersection are destinations and people won't change their dentist, say, because Sherman got reconfigured. Taverns might actually be helped, because people like to walk or bike to a tavern. Look at the Harmony. Everybody walks or bikes to the Harmony.

This isn't all the businesses. Who do you think, specifically, will be hurt? Some, like the PDQ, might actually be helped.

I'm not blowing off your concern, but in order to evaluate it we need to get specific.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Fri May 03, 2013 1:04 pm

Ninja wrote:My God, it's like arguing with teenagers.


I love debating someone who says, "I'm right, you're wrong. End of story"

Give us proof of another construction project like this that basically wiped out the majority of businesses.

Also, why would anyone currently use Sherman as a "cut through." Where are they going.? How many people who use Sherman actually live in the area? I'm guessing a lot(the majority) If that's the case, they're going to frequent those businesses anyway. If you don't live in that area, you probably already use Packers as a faster route. I used to live on Sherman and it sucked monkey nuts. If I had to get anywhere, I got off Sherman as soon as I could to use an alternative route.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Bad Gradger » Sat May 04, 2013 2:24 pm

For somebody who allegedly drives up and down Sherman every single day and insists commuters like him are the lifeblood of all these businesses, Ninja seems not to have noticed the enormous store closing signs plastered all over Dorn Hardware. Surely, someone as in touch with the neighborhood as him would've mentioned it in one of his ten posts since the signs went up Tuesday.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby massimo » Sat May 04, 2013 2:55 pm

Normally I wouldn't read comments on articles like the one you linked, BG, but I have to say that the comments by one Cornelius Gotchberg are pure trolling virtuosity. Now why can't we have that level of artistry here on TDP? I thought this was the premier forum in these parts?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby gargantua » Sat May 04, 2013 9:34 pm

You know, there was another major change the city made a few years ago that brought on predictions of doom and mass business failures. Yup, it was just going to drive everybody out of business.

The smoking ban. It put every bar in town out of business, just like they said, right? Right?

The predictions of doom from the North Sherman redo are just as overblown.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Sat May 11, 2013 8:48 am

Bike lanes led to 49% increase in retail sales

We also know that people who travel along a street by bicycle have fewer barriers to stopping at a local business than people who travel along the same street by car. It's very easy to hop off a bicycle and find a place to secure the bike; not so with finding parking for an automobile. In fact, a recent study suggest that bicycle riders tend to spend more at local businesses over the course of a month.


I realize this is in New York, but it's an interesting study about the effectiveness of bike lanes beyond safety and accommodating cyclists.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby SombreroFallout » Sat May 11, 2013 9:57 pm

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby SombreroFallout » Sun May 12, 2013 1:18 pm

Ninja wrote:
jman111 wrote:I'm not convinced the impact on businesses will be negative.

... So the businesses on Sherman are primarly geared towards serving commuters.

Data, please.
This proposal will dramatically lower the number of commuters on Sherman, by design, and the majority of those businesses will be gone within a year.

Prove it.

Balancing through traffic, local access and neighborhood livability requires commuters to yield some percentage and that means redesigning Madison's arteries to serve a range of purposes. Most studies show better bike access and ped-friendly streetscapes INCREASE retail activity. While some of these studies are set in old, urban downtown retail districts all of Madison's arterials will transition in that direction over the long haul.

Madison's tendency to go only half-way in redesigning these corridors, essentially blurring the difference, may be problematic. For example, wide commercial corridors -- 2-lane each way routes with yellow-striped middle-Left-turn-lanes and no bike lanes -- are most accident-prone. I.e., commuter routes. By not going whole-hog, a redesign might not capture all the benefits of traffic-calming or multi-modal goals.

Other conclusions you've jumped to may not hold: 'Losing a lane' doesn't tend to reduce through-traffic down at all in this scenario. With left turns out of the left-hand through-lane, traffic isn't likely to back up and then stop-start as everybody tries to switch to the right lane to get around the driver signaling a left. Net smoother flow, assuming right turns don't come to a full stop before making their move.

Plus, slower average speeds (but not through-put) give drivers a chance to see the retail establishments they normally fly right by--and if they can see your business, they'll stop and shop more often.
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