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The gun thread

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Re: The gun thread

Postby pjbogart » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:27 pm

Well, we're almost to 100 pages, boys and girls. Now would be a good time for a rehash, lest a newcomer feel the need to read all 100 pages in order to be "up to snuff".

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

People with guns kill people more efficiently, so we should have restrictions on gun ownership.

But the Second Amendment forbids gun restrictions.

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

Here's an example of someone who used a gun irresponsibly. That's proof that we should have more restrictions.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

Here's an example of someone who used a gun responsibly. That's proof that we should have more guns.

No we shouldn't.

Yes we should.

No we shouldn't.

Yes we should.

Well, that pretty much sums it up. Did I miss any important points?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:42 pm

Yeah.

Nobody on either side has convinced anybody on the other side to change their mind.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby BSH » Wed May 01, 2013 5:35 pm

The above two posts pretty much sum up the issue in a nutshell. Pjbogart just needs to add a little more yes/no, yes/no, yes/no, and that's all there is.

For myself, I came to this thread not to change anybody's mind (although it would be nice) nor to change mine, but really just to find out from active discussion if there's anything other than emotional arguments supporting gun control. The answer I've found (so far) is, not much.

Just like the mainstream media and opinion columnists, we haven't had much discussion if any on some of the relevant factors. It's not polite to admit that, statistically, blacks commit three times more murders than they should, nor can we posit any solution to that part of the problem. Data on other parts of the problem are just absent in some cases, or all over the map. Heck, we can't even agree on what the problem is - I use the homicide rate as a measure of the problem, but not everyone does.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled noise... ;)
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Re: The gun thread

Postby BSH » Wed May 01, 2013 5:41 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
Aren't you arguing that a scary rifle ban is okay because it would prevent shootings?


No. Reduce casualties.

Okay, demonstrate where it has done so, or how it could do so. I say you can't, because they are too infrequently used in shootings to have a measurable effect.

fisticuffs wrote:Nancy Lanza bought that gun after the assault rifle ban. Had it been extended Lanza wouldn't have been able to use one in this event and it's more than reasonable to speculate he would have killed less with less powerful weapons. If that's not the case then what is the point of an assault rifle?


You neglect that CT maintained gun laws more strict than the federal laws, and previously existing rifles (pre-ban) continued to be legal to own, buy, and sell (just more expensive). That rifle was legal. And it's not reasonable to speculate at all. Had the shooter chosen to leave the rifle in the car and just go with the pistols like the VA Tech shooter, there is no reason to believe even one single life would have been saved.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby BSH » Wed May 01, 2013 6:26 pm

We may be getting mixed up - you're quoting a comment that was replying to someone else.
DCB wrote:A ban wouldn't make it impossible to commit mass murder, just less likely, or (as fisticuffs points out) with less casualties.

I'm not sure what evidence would convince you that a weapon designed for combat is going to inflict more casualties than a hunting rifle,
Well, you haven't found any yet, so I'm not convinced yet. ;) What measurable metrics do you have?
DCB wrote:Even the disturbed Adam Lanza understood what apparently is beyond your grasp - that the AR-15 was the most deadly weapon in his arsenal.

This is something like quoting only "gun" homicide rates; it argues that people killed with knives or revolvers are less dead. Two shots to center mass from an AR at 10 meters are neither more nor less deadly than two shots center mass from a .357 revolver. In both cases, the target dies nearly instantly. I'll defer to medical experts, but in that close range scenario, as a prospective victim, it makes no difference to me.

Here is what the author of that NIJ you've referred to actually says:
Should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement.

There has not been a clear decline in the use of ARs, though assessments are complicated by the rarity of crimes with these weapons.

Because the ban has not yet reduced the use of LCMs in crime, we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence.
(quotes directly from the study).
So, its entirely justifiable to say that a ban on AW would have "no effect" based on actual data and studies. That study goes on with many more quotes I could pick to show that going after "assault weapons" is irrational (if the objective is reducing homicide rates).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 0121406431

DCB wrote:Oh, and BTW, That article shows other evidence that the original AW ban was effective in reducing the number of AW used by criminals.

Not quite. I read that article carefully when it came out; you have to read it carefully to understand what it says and what it doesn't say. Read it again. It talks about weapons seized in Virginia with "high-capacity" magazines. It is not about "assault weapons." It also does not establish any link between weapons seizures and homicide rates. In fact, homicide rates in Virginia declined steadily, even while the article says the numbers of weapons with "high-capacity" magazines being seized were increasing. The homicide rate for Virginia in 2011 was the lowest it's been in well over 60 years (contrast this with Britain, whose homicide rate is 68% higher in 2011 than it was in 1967).
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Wed May 01, 2013 10:22 pm

It's not polite to admit that, statistically, blacks commit three times more murders than they should, nor can we posit any solution to that part of the problem.


You missed the article and state-by-state statistics I linked from the Washington Post (no left-wing rag) somewhere upthread. The stats broke down gun deaths state by state, by race, and showed very clearly while blacks shoot one another, whites tend to shoot themselves (gun suicides). I don't know what more you want: the misuse of guns varies by race and nobody's trying to hide it.

It's also well known attitudes toward guns break differently north/south, urban/rural, and male/female. I'm not going to post all this stuff for you again if you didn't read it the first time or can't find it on your own. It's definitely part of the national discussion, but tends to get drowned out by Second Amendment absolutism and the NRA position. Do not forget the NRA is largely white males, but the population of the US is not largely white males, white males do not make all the decisions any more, and other groups have different interests and values. Everyone needs to be heard, and everyone needs information from all sides.

In my opinion, first we have to agree that just as guns given to arm insurgencies overseas do not disappear once the insurgency ends, guns on the street or in homes across the US do not disappear either. In both cases, they'll remain in circulation indefinitely.

For that reason alone, guns are not going away in the US so there's no benefit in trying to restrict their manufacture or prevent their sale. That horse is out of the barn. To keep track of where they are and to whom they are sold makes more sense, along with creating a national database so we know where the guns came from when a gun crime is committed or when a major flow of guns ends up all in one place (legally or not), which would be an obvious local or national security issue. Then we would know better what type of limitations -- mental health? past violent crime convictions? domestic disturbance calls? a history of road rage? affiliation with political extremists? or what? -- would help prevent future deaths.

At the same time we know all people do not follow laws so better targeted public protection is also needed (such as for schoolchildren on the streets of Chicago, as discussed on another forum topic). That's another reason we need to collect and analyze gun data across the whole country. What's helpful, wanted, and needed in New Mexico might be totally different from the needs in, say, Massachusetts or Chicago.

Most important, though, we need intelligent and thoughtful public discussion about the appropriate and useful role of guns in the home. If people knew data showed a gun in the home statistically causes seven accidental or domestic-dispute-related deaths for every one crime prevented (or whatever the number is) they could make more reasonable calculations as to the benefits. Maybe some people with kids would decide a gun in the home is too much risk, for example. Everyone has their own risk-taking beliefs and makes their own choices but right now a purposely-cultivated attitude of fear and stubbornness is overriding a lot of clear-eyed risk assessment.

Last, and this has not been mentioned much, I think the general public needs more exposure to what's been called "gun porn." This includes advertising, special-interest journalism, games, and more. Most of us out here do not view this at all, and I think if more people who are not interested knew just what this stuff looks like (it's right there for the clicking) they might understand more about where the more extreme gun-enthusiasts (I use the word reluctantly and for lack of a better one) are coming from. It's not a pretty picture, and it needs to be exposed to more light.

So we need to hold this whole thing up for review until the usual noise-machine is neutralized by information and rational, data-based, and mutually respectful dialogue. Hunters and schoolteachers, for instance, got along just fine and could discuss guns politely and respectfully in 1975, and they can do it again once they screen out the screamers. Humanity hasn't changed all that much, though the media and political environment have. I hope we can do this before we get to a point where gun deaths are no more remarkable than roadkill.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Stella_Guru » Thu May 02, 2013 8:23 am

snoqueen wrote: Do not forget the NRA is largely white males, but the population of the US is not largely white males, white males do not make all the decisions any more,.......

Oh yes they do, and that is why the only gun bans/laws that will get passed are those which are economic and racist in intent, and include such things as warrantless gun sweeps in "high crime neighborhoods" focused on inexpensive guns.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Thu May 02, 2013 8:41 am

snoqueen wrote:Yeah.

Nobody on either side has convinced anybody on the other side to change their mind.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Stebben84 » Fri May 03, 2013 2:10 pm

2013 NRA Convention Schedule Of Events

FRIDAY, May 3

12 p.m.: Welcoming introduction video from President Obama

12:30 p.m.: Security forced to hold back squealing teenage girls in attendance as Wayne LaPierre takes stage

12:35 p.m.: Quick joke about how everyone in attendance must have passed a background check to warm up the crowd

1 p.m.: Most unconscionable words you could ever imagine met with enthusiastic cheers from thousands of people

3 p.m.: Remembrance of the victims of Sandy Hook with an extended moment of loud, scrambling excuse-making

6 p.m.: Reasoned, level-headed debate on whether the Second Amendment continues to hold relevance
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri May 03, 2013 2:39 pm

A five-year-old in Kentucky shot and killed his two-year-old sister with the kiddie gun he got from his parents. Check out the chipmunk and cricket rifles, small sized .22s designed for young children.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat May 04, 2013 9:31 am

The Washington Post has an interested article on how military style weaponry was allowed to be purchased by civilians.

NRA lobbyist, arms dealer played key role in growth of civilian market for military-style guns

The legislative changes that LaPierre supported as the NRA’s chief lobbyist in the mid-1980s opened the door to the import of military-surplus weapons, which effectively had been banned for two decades. The legislation helped make a new, more powerful class of firearms more readily available to civilian gun owners and begin to shift the profile of American gun ownership.

The arms deal put together by Vos’s company — a $58 million venture to import 50-year-old American-made M-1 rifles from South Korea back to the United States — proved so lucrative that other gun merchants immediately tried to follow its lead. Other importers would seek to bring in more military weapons, not just American but also foreign-made arms such as Russian Kalashnikovs and Israeli Uzis, and new business associations sprang up to represent their interests in Washington.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Sat May 04, 2013 4:11 pm

BSH wrote:For myself, I came to this thread not to change anybody's mind (although it would be nice) nor to change mine, but really just to find out from active discussion if there's anything other than emotional arguments supporting gun control. The answer I've found (so far) is, not much.

It's funny you should put it that way. I wanted to find out if the gun nuts had any logical reasons for no background checks. The answer I've found so far is "no." All they do is say "do you have anything other than emotional arguments?" Then they label every argument "emotional" and throw it out.

Oh, sorry, I should have said "gun enthusiasts."
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat May 04, 2013 4:14 pm

The NRA types say that the emphasis should be placed on preventing the seriously mentally ill from getting guns, yet the official line of the NRA is against expanding background checks. That does not compute.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Sat May 04, 2013 9:56 pm

rabble wrote:Oh, sorry, I should have said "gun enthusiasts."

I prefer the term "random murder enthusiasts".

(P.S. I hope nobody gets all emotional about that).
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Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Sat May 04, 2013 11:33 pm

I keep forgetting that the whole concept and discussion of "gun control" is about to undergo a transformation. As in, no control possible and all discussion moot.

Although I'm not sure the NRA wanted it to be THAT uncontrolled.
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