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right to die

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: right to die

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri May 10, 2013 5:56 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:I think that people have a right to chose to stop living due to medical conditions, I'm not sure that that goes so far as a right to actively end their life, especially if they have existing responsibilities such as children or excesive debts that they would be passing on to a partner. Sorry, but you created your mess, you don't get to run away from it.


Who are you to tell another person how to live, or not live, their own life?


An opinionated slightly arrogant forum poster, you didn't think you held exclusive rights, did you?

if it will make you feel better I'll try and wrap all my statements about hypothetical situations with an "In my opinion" future. If I actually thought anyone was going to read what I said in TDPF, and suddenly change their mind about a life altering decision, I'd have to graduate myself from slightly arrogant to full on egomaniac.

I should slightly correct my earlier statement though.
I'm not sure that that goes so far as a right to actively end their life

should have been stated as
I'm not sure that that goes so far as a right to actively end their life for no medical reasons


<inmyopinion>I still don't think people who want to off themselves because they can't cope with life are cowards who don't care about those around them</inmyopinion>
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Re: right to die

Postby Huckleby » Fri May 10, 2013 10:43 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote: I'm not sure that that goes so far as a right to actively end their life for no medical reasons.

I still don't think people who want to off themselves because they can't cope with life are cowards who don't care about those around them
Your post was confusing, not sure where you stand, but I will offer my opinion.

It's easy for people to understand why somebody would want to commit suicide for medical purposes, and I imagine much support for a suffering person who wants out. But why should we judge the reason? Why is it a crime for a person to attempt suicide?

I don't consider suicides to be cowardly, although they certainly could be.
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Re: right to die

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sat May 11, 2013 12:27 am

Let's look at it from two directions. First imagine you or I were to cause a person to die either through negligence or intent. In addition to any criminal charges we might face, the family of the deceased could sue us from wrongful death and receive compensation for the loss of support, as emotional turmoil we had caused. If said person had instead killed themselves, their family would have no way of receiving compensation, which could be an issue for several reasons.
Suppose the deceased had killed his or her self due to excessive debt (a common problem leading to depression). Unable to see a way out, he or she, decides to end it all. Fine if the person is single, but if they aren't that debt just fell on the shoulders of their spouse who now has the same debt and one less person to help pay it off.
Or the deceased could have children. Ok maybe they figure the kids are better off in the care of someone else. But not only is the person giving up caring for their children, but they are putting the expense on someone else (or on the state).

Mostly my issue with suicide for emotional reasons is that its a giant cowardly fuck you to those you leave behind. Basically you are saying you are do not have enough character or courage to face your problems so you would rather kill yourself and dump a pile of guilt and remorse on those who care about you.

Also, it's stupid. With effort, and help, most personal issues can be dealt with. On the other hand, death is pretty unsolvable.

Ultimately everyone does have the ability (legal or not) to chose to end their life. It's just my opinion that it's a cowards way out.
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Re: right to die

Postby Huckleby » Sat May 11, 2013 9:11 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote: Mostly my issue with suicide for emotional reasons is that its a giant cowardly fuck you to those you leave behind.

Sometimes, sure. BTW, if you look at your previous post, you said exactly the opposite, so I was confused by your typo.

Francis Di Domizio wrote: Basically you are saying you are do not have enough character or courage to face your problems so you would rather kill yourself and dump a pile of guilt and remorse on those who care about you.

I don't think you can generalize about why people commit suicide. I believe it is possible for people to fall into a state where there really is no way out to a dignified life. Does a woman stuck in the sex slave trade have options? Many more examples. I also disagree that it takes no courage to commit suicide.

Francis Di Domizio wrote: Ultimately everyone does have the ability (legal or not) to chose to end their life.

No they do not, and this is the whole point. There are many barriers to suicide placed by the majority wishing to impose their own values on others. Dying elderly people can't choose to end their suffering, and doctors who assist them are subject to prison. What is this "suicide watch" BS so prisoners can be tried and killed?

I really have no problem with your opinions about suicide, you offer the common, mainstream position. People can certainly disagree on religion and philosophy.

The point of contention is that you are intent on imposing your religion and philosophy on others. You support laws that make it illegal for people to act in a way that disagrees with you.
Huckleby
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Re: right to die

Postby gargantua » Sat May 11, 2013 12:03 pm

Isn't preventing people from acting in ways that the majority disagrees with one of the very reasons we even HAVE laws?

Clearly you aren't going to agree with me, but in almost all cases, a suicide has an impact on other people, not just the one who took his or her life. Even if you completely disregard the emotional impact on friends and relatives, we taxpayers have to send an ambulance to the scene, investigate the death to make sure that it was in fact a suicide, and so on. Insurance companies have to get involved. Maybe creditors don't get paid.

I think laws governing suicide are more restrictive than they need to be, but I can understand society's interest in having SOME.
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Re: right to die

Postby Huckleby » Sat May 11, 2013 1:14 pm

gargantua wrote:Isn't preventing people from acting in ways that the majority disagrees with one of the very reasons we even HAVE laws?

Good lord, I hope not. It's a free country.

gargantua wrote: a suicide has an impact on other people, not just the one who took his or her life ... disregard the emotional impact on friends and relatives, we taxpayers have to send an ambulance to the scene

Ya, there is a societal harm to a suicide, frequently.
There are societal harms from alchoholism, fast food, pornography, fundamentalist religions - and I would say the harm of all these are greater than those of people checking out early. One reason people kill themselves is that they are a burden to others. Death always imposes costs. Remember, we all die soon enough anyway, so suicide just moves up the sell-by date.

In my judgement, the right of an individual to answer for themselves the question "to be or not to be" is so fundamental to freedom and dignity, that the trade-off with societal interests is not even a close call.

I would suggest that most of the objection to legal suicide has zero to do with practicalities. It has to do with control, religion, fear of death. Suicides upset people.
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Re: right to die

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sat May 11, 2013 9:12 pm

Huckleby wrote:I believe it is possible for people to fall into a state where there really is no way out to a dignified life. Does a woman stuck in the sex slave trade have options? Many more examples. I also disagree that it takes no courage to commit suicide.

I can except your belief that suicide might take some courage, but would counter that fighting through the challenges in most cases would take far more. Granted in some cases as you point out, suicide is the only dignified way out, and I would hardly look down on a woman or man escaping slaver of any sort by ending their lives (though I would hope a better solution would present itself before they reached that point). Nor do I think society has a right to keep the terminally ill or others who suffer from debilitating medical conditions from ending their lives.

Huckleby wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote: Ultimately everyone does have the ability (legal or not) to chose to end their life.

No they do not, and this is the whole point. There are many barriers to suicide placed by the majority wishing to impose their own values on others. Dying elderly people can't choose to end their suffering, and doctors who assist them are subject to prison. What is this "suicide watch" BS so prisoners can be tried and killed?

I really have no problem with your opinions about suicide, you offer the common, mainstream position. People can certainly disagree on religion and philosophy.

The point of contention is that you are intent on imposing your religion and philosophy on others. You support laws that make it illegal for people to act in a way that disagrees with you.


Actually I don't. I'm very much against suicide (though not for religious reasons I can assure you), but I'm fine thinking poorly of a person who kills them self (or attempts to) for what I personally think is a stupid reason. If they leave behind dependents who will suffer due to their absence, I'll definitely think even more poorly of them. But I can't say as I actually support a law banning suicide, especially when it comes to terminally ill or those who's medical state might prevent them from getting any joy out of life. I'm not really a big fan of needing my government to enforce my personal disdain. I can think someone is a quitter without having them be labeled a criminal to boot.

I do think it's OK for the state to keep criminals on a suicide watch if there is a possibility they may have more information about a crime or crimes they were involved in, but once that's settled, I wasn't kidding, leave em in a room with a bottle of pills, a gun or a rope and let them decide for themselves. Not that I really care that much for their desires so much as I don't see any reason in the state supporting them if there is no reason to.
Francis Di Domizio
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Re: right to die

Postby Huckleby » Sat May 11, 2013 10:06 pm

doesn't sound like we disagree very much. Perhaps another foil will enter the ring, preferably somebody not overly bright.
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Re: right to die

Postby gargantua » Sat May 11, 2013 10:07 pm

Well, Huck, in spite of the fact we don't agree on all points, I do respect your opinion. I'd even say we are pretty much in agreement when it comes to the elderly, and when people have serious/debilitating diseases. But taking the gift of life casually....I have to respectfully disagree that there is some sort of right to that.

As a practical matter, if you or I should decide to depart this life, any subsequent consequence in this world is rather a moot point in any event. For my part, I plan to stick around for as long as it is bearable. If my departure is illegal....sue me, and good luck with that!
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Re: right to die

Postby Huckleby » Sat May 11, 2013 10:32 pm

gargantua wrote: For my part, I plan to stick around for as long as it is bearable.


OK, will give you a heads-up if you should become unbearable.
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