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Catch-all Benghazi

If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it fits here

Did you really believe the Benghazi-Youtube-Video-Story when you heard it?

Yes.
5
56%
No.
4
44%
 
Total votes : 9

Catch-all Benghazi

Postby Bludgeon » Fri May 10, 2013 8:59 pm

I have only one question about Benghazi for anyone who reads this: Did you believe the Benghazi story about the video when you heard it? If not, what therefore do you make of it? If you are forced to have an opinion on it, what does it mean to you?

I feel it's safe to assume that none to few of us really believed that story when we heard it. My first and final reaction upon hearing the story was "no way that's true."

I think if we're all honest with ourselves we can admit there's no way we would seriously believe the president didn't know the truth from day one, no way the press didn't know better.

I'm just going by my gut, but my hunch is that not even the president's staunchest supporters will see any value in pretending to take seriously that anyone in the administration considered the youtube claim to be valid to any extent. After all whether you believe him or not has nothing to do with whether you like him or not.

In a nut shell, the decision was made within the administration that basically "we're just going to push forward with this false narrative," trusting members of the press to decide, "we're just going to go ahead and report this false narrative," and liberal Democratic voters and activists' position is, "we don't give a damn about the false narrative," and soccer moms position is, "we don't ever like to hear bad news so we're just going to forget this false narrative."

Yes?
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby Sandi » Fri May 10, 2013 9:07 pm

So why didn't you ask your question in the Benghazi thread. Must we have multiple threads for the same topic?

Ok I see you have a poll. It wasn't there when I first responded.

No I didn't believe the video had anything to do with it, because it was obviously an attack as they were launching rockets.
Last edited by Sandi on Fri May 10, 2013 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby Bludgeon » Fri May 10, 2013 9:08 pm

Just wanted to ask a question with a more specific focus with a nice poll up there and hopefully not all the fighting.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby Mad Howler » Fri May 10, 2013 9:32 pm

Well Bludge, I am glad you are isolating this.
I suppose how one is reacting to this is kind of like one's preference for brands like: Coke or Pepsi, McD or BK, Ford or Honda, etc.
It sucks very much as you think about it.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby snoqueen » Sat May 11, 2013 2:14 am

I can't vote one way or another on the question posed, though I appreciate your trying to break the problem into manageable pieces.

People with any life experience realize the causes of a mass event or crowd action are complex. This is especially true when we are dealing with relatively-unorganized mass actions as opposed to formal military ones, actions spread over a large area, and actions driven by passion rather than deliberation.

When I heard about the video my thought was "perhaps seeing that video inflamed some people's passions, they got together, and something like a riot occurred." Note all the qualifiers. That's the way I take most news reports. The world is complex and multiple causes over time are the rule not the exception. You wait and see.

News reports, as we watch, are filed by individuals or small groups and as further information becomes available they're filled out and modified. We're piecing things together, sorting relevant from irrelevant, using other people's information when we can't get our own, and triangulating by waiting for more than one good source to give the same story before committing to a particular version.

If you listen to interviews with war reporters, one of the points they return to is how "in war, the first thing to go out the window is the truth." Imagine yourself on the ground trying to collect information and cover something as simple (relatively) as the Boston Marathon bombing in its first hours. The city was crawling with reporters interviewing every bystander and public official trying to piece things together. Gradually the picture (or part of one) emerged. Now place the action in a faraway country where English is not the first language, take the chaos up by a factor of a hundred or so, remove nearly all the professional reporters, kill off your prime witnesses the foreign service officials, and imagine trying to piece things together half a world away, using only reports from agencies spread over a wide geographical area, assembled from fragments.

As the Benghazi story developed, I did not at any point think previously peaceful shepherds or the like, with no warning, undertook a murderous riot upon viewing a video together. I realized there was a context, and the context was a geographical area that had been your proverbial powderkeg for quite some time. Like any sensible person I followed along as the bits and pieces trickled in and everyone -- the public and government officials both -- tried to find out what was happening. The video thing was part of it, but it was very early and it was just a part.

So I can't say yes or no to your survey question and neither can anyone else with more-than-grade-school experience. If I see a video of Mitt Romney talking about the 47%, I can go "as long as that's not fake, it shows what he says when he's behind closed doors with a particular donor group." Evaluating news of a murderous mob in a foreign country is just a little more complicated, don't you think? Who was in the mob? Did it have leaders? Did all, some, or none of the people belong to some organization? How stable or fluid was their affiliation with that organization? Did they meet before the riot/action to plan, did they show up and spontaneously execute a plan they'd sketched out earlier, or did they act entirely on impulse once critical mass was attained? If there were leaders, were they coordinating their actions with like-minded people in neighboring countries? Where did the money for their weapons and ammunition come from? Why are they angry? Is every person in the crowd acting for the same reasons? At what point does a person in a murderous crowd cross the line and become a person who can be called a terrorist? Who makes that distinction, and what are the criteria?

Maybe part of the reason we here in the US in 2013 can't come to any consensus on what happened over there (or over here, even) is complexity. If you believe everything has a linear narrative as it happens, like a movie (well, some movies) you're going to come to different conclusions than if you acknowledge the power of confusion, complexity, and imperfect communication in the unfolding of real-world events. I see a lack of willingness to accept that complexity as part of the story at hand. This story has many actors and angles, in most cases we can assume people are doing their jobs the best they can with the information available, and not everybody's interests and information coincide at any point in time. That's reality, not some giant conspiracy. Everybody re-evaluates the whole time a breaking story is in process. It's not controlled by some script or director.

Nobody's that good, not in real time. When it comes to international events, we're all just groping in the dark -- public officials and media included. People can't even agree on why a basketball team loses a game everyone saw in its entirety. How could we possibly agree on a perfect, definitive version of what happened in North Africa many months ago?

I have found it interesting to watch the Republican factor change their talking points (or script) repeatedly as this story bounces around, while at the same time expressing outrage that some (imaginary) script produced by the administration got revised as the story developed in real time. Don't they realize this is how the world works, how history happens?

(and how politics works, I might add)
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby Sandi » Sat May 11, 2013 5:01 am

snoqueen wrote:I have found it interesting to watch the Republican factor change their talking points (or script) repeatedly as this story bounces around, while at the same time expressing outrage that some (imaginary) script produced by the administration got revised as the story developed in real time.


The Republican factor hasn't changed.

As for your "script" just look around at a couple of news sites of your choice. You will easily find that copies exist ( of your imaginary script ) with before and after text, showing just what was edited and deleted.

snoqueen wrote:Don't they realize this is how the world works, how history happens?


Not only do they know how the real world works, but they realize how your world works.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby gargantua » Sat May 11, 2013 12:17 pm

To the question: I believed it when I first heard it. One of the reasons I believed it was that people were rioting in Cairo, at the same time for that very reason. So at first, it seemed to make sense.

I don't know what the administration believed. I suspect we will never know. I do find it to be quite sad that some people apparently believe that the administration could have saved them and chose not to.

That doesn't even make sense. If they could have saved them, and succeeded, they'd all be heroes. But apparently some believe that they all got together and decided, let's let 'em die and hope no one finds out.

Get real.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby snoqueen » Sat May 11, 2013 7:29 pm

The Republican factor hasn't changed.


Then once and for all tell us what the problem is. I can't see any crimes, any incompetence, any covering-up, any anything. What would be the motivation to cover anything up in a world where everything finally comes out in public?

I also do not see any direct, straightforward accusations being brought by anybody on this forum. Remember an accusation has to be based on facts. Otherwise it's called a "baseless accusation," which is a whole 'nother thing.

All I see is a fast-moving story in a faraway, complex place that took several days to play out, a story that started with shock and confusion both here and in Africa, a story we had to piece together at a distance, a story where something nobody wanted (some deaths) happened, a story that shows us holes in our foreign service security, and a story both the Republicans and the administration have tried to tell in a way that supports the overall theme or narrative each is trying to build, which is hardly criminal or even unusual these days.

None of those who have testified before Congress have accused any administration officials of anything, and if they -- people who were on the scene -- can't come up with anything, why are you still trying?
Last edited by snoqueen on Sat May 11, 2013 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby Sandi » Sat May 11, 2013 7:34 pm

snoqueen wrote:Then once and for all tell us what the problem is. I can't see any crimes, any incompetence, any covering-up, any anything. I also do not see any direct, straightforward accusations being brought by anybody on this forum. Remember an accusation has to be based on facts. Otherwise it's called a "baseless accusation," which is a whole 'nother thing
.

Don't get your undies in a bunch, that is what is being investigated. It would be a lot easier and go faster with a little cooperation form Hillary and company.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby snoqueen » Sat May 11, 2013 7:43 pm

Show us where they are not cooperating. They've testified willingly, in a timely manner, and at length. What more can they do?

This looks like another Whitewater investigation, and you probably remember how well that turned out.

Look. You want so bad to find out Mrs. Clinton committed some kind of crime, you just can't stand it. You're fishing here, you're fishing there...

Maybe there are no fish.

It'll be interesting to see what the congressional committee comes up with once all the evidence is laid out for everyone to read/hear/see.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby Sandi » Sat May 11, 2013 8:27 pm

snoqueen wrote:Show us where they are not cooperating. They've testified willingly, in a timely manner, and at length. What more can they do?

This looks like another Whitewater investigation, and you probably remember how well that turned out.

Look. You want so bad to find out Mrs. Clinton committed some kind of crime, you just can't stand it. You're fishing here, you're fishing there...

Maybe there are no fish.

It'll be interesting to see what the congressional committee comes up with once all the evidence is laid out for everyone to read/hear/see.


Oh maybe the state department could help by letting Toensing, representing State Department employees receive the security clearances necessary for them to review classified documents and other key evidence.

These are the whistleblowers with pertinent information on Benghzai. They are being represented by Toensing because they have received threats for administration officials about talking to congress.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby snoqueen » Sat May 11, 2013 9:11 pm

You think this lady should get the same security clearance as John Kerry? That's perfectly ridiculous:

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/05/11 ... ent/194019

She's not even on the same page as her own client, Gregory Hicks:

Toensing's story, however, does not comport with what her client told Congress.


You can read the whole thing at the link given, but that's pretty much the gist of it right there. Recall her client testified under oath and his testimony was generally reviewed as consistent and reasonable.

Here's more about who these lawyers are. They've been around awhile:

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/0 ... ers/193842

They Have Been Criticized For "Non-Stop Mugging" And For Lacking "Impartiality, Non-Partisanship, And Professionalism."


You can find the details at the link given, but again -- that's the gist of it. Things get uglier the further you dig.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby Sandi » Sat May 11, 2013 9:32 pm

Your point is moot. I wasn't talking about Hicks. Hicks isn't her only client.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby Mad Howler » Sat May 11, 2013 9:43 pm

Sandi wrote:Your point is moot. I wasn't talking about Hicks. Hicks isn't her only client.


Nice. And when I say "nice" I mean it in a searching around and confused kind of way. I.e.- your voice is as relevant as any here.
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Re: Catch-all Benghazi

Postby snoqueen » Sun May 12, 2013 1:03 pm

My reply is more like >>sigh<< "click" --

as in clicking away to another page while making a big sigh and doing the face-palm thing.
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