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BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Meade » Fri May 24, 2013 3:23 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
snoqueen wrote:To some extent, this IRS thing is another consequence of Citizens United. When a huge ruling like that comes down, it creates a lot of unexpected (and unintended) collateral effects and you've got to budget for the consequences or you get shit like this.

Absolutely

Looks like the targeting predates the Citizens United decision: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 35312.html
This history also casts light on White House claims that it was clueless about the IRS's targeting. As Huffington Post's Howard Fineman wrote this week: "With two winning presidential campaigns built on successful grassroots fundraising, with a former White House counsel (in 2010-11) who is one of the Democrats' leading experts on campaign law (Bob Bauer), with former top campaign officials having been ensconced as staffers in the White House . . . it's hard to imagine that the Obama inner circle was oblivious to the issue of what the IRS was doing in Cincinnati." More like inconceivable.

And this history exposes the left's hollow claim that the IRS mess rests on Citizens United. The left was targeting conservative groups and donors well before the Supreme Court's 2010 ruling on independent political expenditures by corporations.
Last edited by Meade on Fri May 24, 2013 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri May 24, 2013 3:26 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
snoqueen wrote:The Cap Times had a good short article today (mostly stuff from ProPublica) that lists some "forgotten" facts about social welfare nonprofits and taxation:

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/g ... 963f4.html

"Some social welfare groups promised in their applications, under penalty of perjury, that they wouldn’t get involved in elections. Then they did just that."


Shouldn't IRS actively work to find and stop this abuse of exempt status?

It's hard not to draw the conclusion big money isn't behind the prolonged screaming here.

I saw that too and I agree with your assessment. Here's a direct link to the Propublica article.


Ditto, but they have to do so in an unimpeachable manner. More importantly, lets' get back to following the law which says "Exclusively". I'm sure the regulators in 1959 had a good reason for pretending they didn't understand that particular english word, but hey, we're smarter now, and can probably figure out what that word means. While were at it, lets create a procedure that every group has to follow that's a bit tougher than filling out an application and promising not to do something you are either already doing or about to do.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby snoqueen » Fri May 24, 2013 4:42 pm

Jebus, the IRS screwed up. They admitted they screwed up. What's with this obssession of repainting a few overworked IRS agents who made a bad workflow decission as folk heros out to thwart the Tea party? They weren't, and it would be in a hell of a lot worse if they were.


True. I haven't seen anything about the agents in Cincinnati who are at the epicenter of this whole thing and supposedly made up the poor screening criteria.

Is anything known about their political leanings?

Cincinnati is in a conservative part of the country, and if these particular agents were like the rest of the people there, it pokes a hole in the notion they were targeting conservatives and not just plain cutting corners.

I wouldn't be saying this if the NYC IRS office had done the same, obviously. That might leave us with a different story line.

I agree with what FDD said in another part of this topic on the idea it takes a conspiracy-minded person to see all these conspiracies behind every pile of paper. I'm not of that mind myself and it looks to me more like the whole complaint simply took a while to work itself up the bureaucratic ladder and get noticed (not just by the bureaucrats themselves but by people in a position to make a screaming-point out of it). Nobody should be surprised if either and both political parties have tried to turn the story to their own advantage. That's what parties do, both of 'em. There are rules to be followed in doing so.

As members of the public and followers of current events, it's up to us to figure out if there's fire behind the smoke, or just more smoke. I'm seeing the latter. You're going to have to show me a whole row of victimized, pathetic Tea Party groups suffering greatly because their activities have been wrongly labeled by IRS to change my mind.

Until then I mostly see a lot of well-funded rule-bending and playing at the edge, taking advantage of the fact IRS can be slow as a snail, is underfunded, undertrained, and undersupervised, and its rules, like all rules, can be gamed. All that is hardly a conspiracy.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Meade » Fri May 24, 2013 5:48 pm

snoqueen wrote:Until then I mostly see a lot of well-funded rule-bending and playing at the edge, taking advantage of the fact IRS can be slow as a snail, is underfunded, undertrained, and undersupervised, and its rules, like all rules, can be gamed. All that is hardly a conspiracy.

If the investigations show that there was a conspiracy in which an agency of the federal government used its intimidating authority to benefit the party in power - Obama's Democrats, it will be bad for opponents of the Tea Party.

But if there was not a conspiracy and the targeting happened because of incompetence, stupidity, poor management, poor supervision - and if the taxing authority and federal revenue system really is so easily gamed - it will be a political disaster for Obama and anyone opposed to the Tea Party principles and goals: limited government and reversing Obamacare.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby bdog » Fri May 24, 2013 6:20 pm

snoqueen wrote:Cincinnati is in a conservative part of the country, and if these particular agents were like the rest of the people there, it pokes a hole in the notion they were targeting conservatives and not just plain cutting corners.

That there is Sandi level stupid.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Bludgeon » Fri May 24, 2013 6:22 pm

Huckleby wrote:
wack wack wrote:Why does this non-issue continue to be an issue?

Here are the facts: the IRS has a right to ask for X or anything less than X from an applicant; nobody was asked for more than X; and nobody was denied approval.

Them's the facts, Jack.

So you think the Cincinnati people made no mistake, and should have continued in their procedures?

I get that the targeted organizations ultimately got the sweet deal they sought, but they still were harassed to some degree.

The details of this thing don't matter so much. Once you go down the path of searching for "Tea Party" for any purpose, the IRS is screwing up.

Image
Could not have put the central question better myself.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby pjbogart » Fri May 24, 2013 8:56 pm

So let's say that I'm working for the IRS and my supervisor hands me a stack of applications for tax-exempt status and says, "now I want you to go through these and figure out which of these are charitable organizations and which of these are primarily political organizations."

First thing I do, look at their names. If they call themselves "The Tea Party Patriots of Oiho", I put that one in the political stack. The application was likely filled out in crayon and they can't even spell "Ohio" so they're likely a right-wing Republican organization. Perhaps they're running a charity, but the only way to find out is to ask them some more questions.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Meade » Fri May 24, 2013 9:04 pm

bdog wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Cincinnati is in a conservative part of the country, and if these particular agents were like the rest of the people there, it pokes a hole in the notion they were targeting conservatives and not just plain cutting corners.

That there is Sandi level stupid.

Snowqueen has her own special level. But her logic is revealing - that Cincinnati is in a conservative part of the country and therefore IRS agents there couldn't possibly have been targeting conservatives because, well, that would be conservatives on conservatives, don't you see? They were simply "cutting corners" probably because they're stupid conservative low-level employees who have to cut corners because they don't get paid enough because, well, because conservatives...

Facts:
Hamilton County, which is mostly made up of the city of Cincinnati, voted for Obama over McCain 52% to 47%
and Obama over Romney 52% to 47%

In both 2008 and 2012, Obama got more votes from Hamilton County, Ohio than he did from Dane County, Wisconsin.

Of course, some of those votes were frauds. But that was probably because of... in Snowqueen World -- conservatives: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/1 ... 60497.html

Added: And then, of course, there is PJBogart World - where criminal use of federal power and authority can always be justified as long as it's used to put crayon using poor spelling right-wingers out of business. Tell you what PJBogart democracy looks like? That's what PJBogart democracy looks like.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby pjbogart » Fri May 24, 2013 9:17 pm

Meade wrote:In both 2008 and 2012, Obama got more votes from Hamilton County, Ohio than he did from Dane County, Wisconsin.


I agree that Cincinnati's reputation as a conservative city is no indication that the IRS agents in question were, in fact, conservatives.

Your point is equally irrational, and it's added to a pile of irrational points that would fill a Ground Zero Mosque, if there was such a thing.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Meade » Sat May 25, 2013 10:22 am

pjbogart wrote:Your point is equally irrational

Not to a reasonable person who understands my clear and simple point: it doesn't matter what the reputation of a city is. What matters is that the power of a federal agency with taxing authority was abused. The responsibility for supervision and for correcting that abuse goes to the top - President Barack H. Obama.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby snoqueen » Sat May 25, 2013 1:00 pm

I agree that Cincinnati's reputation as a conservative city is no indication that the IRS agents in question were, in fact, conservatives.


I even agree with this.

My point was has anybody found out whether the political leanings of the IRS agents who created the poor screening criteria could have anything to do with why they did it.

Then I said given that Cincinnati and Ohio are not known as liberal, like, say New York City, perhaps the agents were also conservative and were not purposely targeting their own, which would be both weird and pointless. (Even the vote tally in the last election does not change the fact they have plenty of conservative voters.)

Which would leave the reasonable possibility the employees were cutting corners.

They shouldn't have done that, the agency should have better supervision, training, and preparation for a flood of applications relevant to Cit. United, and the usual way to upgrade an agency is fund it more adequately and possibly appoint new top management.

However, since no taxes were collected from the applicants in question, taxing authority was not abused.

And that's that. I'll leave it to someone else to prove the votes in Ohio were frauds, which is just plain made up nonsense.

Speaking of conspiracies:

Right now however I am outraged about the bridge that collapsed in Washington State, it is definitely Obama's direct fault since we've known for years these bridges are vulnerable (e.g. Minneapolis Rt 35 several years ago, with fatalities), it is a conspiracy against political enemies, and everything they've said since has been lies.

Where are the screamers? Huh?
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Stella_Guru » Sat May 25, 2013 6:58 pm

President Obama will walk away unscathed from these "scandels". His giveaways of the public trust to private hands and his mercenary foreign policy makes him way to valuable.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Meade » Sat May 25, 2013 8:43 pm

Stella_Guru wrote:President Obama will walk away unscathed from these "scandels".

I think you're right - he'll walk away unscathed. And it will probably be better for the country if he does.

Progressivism and the trend toward unlimited government as something to trust in might not be so lucky though. Those evils are beginning to be exposed to even progressives and liberals. You can even see it in Snowqueen's cognitive dissonance ⬆.

Hope. And change.
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Stella_Guru » Sun May 26, 2013 8:01 am

Meade wrote:Progressivism and the trend toward unlimited government as something to trust in might not be so lucky though. Those evils are beginning to be exposed to even progressives and liberals. You can even see it in Snowqueen's cognitive dissonance ⬆.

Hope. And change.

The "evil" being exposed here is a candidate who dropped a few phrases of empathy for the suckers in his base, got elected on the high tide of public disgust with Bush, but then has pushed an agenda of Republican policies even they couldn't enact. So, you see President Obama as a Progressive?
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Huckleby » Sun May 26, 2013 8:20 am

Meade wrote: Progressivism and the trend toward unlimited government as something to trust in might not be so lucky though. Those evils are beginning to be exposed to even progressives and liberals.


Trust in government is already at historic lows. I think what we see is an uptick in cynicism and despair; all institutions are lowly regarded. But is that the same as suggesting that progressive causes like universal health care, student loans and environmentalism are becoming unpopular? People under 35 have a greater belief in government that older people.

Oh, and "unlimited government" is a straw man. Well, it's an exaggerated, extremist point of view; liberals are not communists.

The scandals that the OBama administration is enduring are no different than the sturm-und-drang of every other presidential cycle. Washington has been one "scandal" after another since I started paying attention.

I agree that the IRS scandal may do short-term political harm to the Democratic party.
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