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What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

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What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby Bludgeon » Thu May 30, 2013 8:31 pm

Would anybody be so inclined as to explain, in a rhetoric-free way, what the case is for the argument that sexuality is a predetermined genetic trait?

Like: you have blue eyes, red hair, a fair complexion, can't grow sideburns, have a unibrow, and.... [/insert sexuality type].

I ask, because I'm curiuos if the argument for predetermined sexuality is stronger in it's extensive form than the little snippets I've seen, which to me have seemed pretty tenuous.

I'm interested because gay marriage has been in the news lately and the idea of predetermined sexuality has always been a notion that kind of bugs me. I feel I always have to repeat here, I'm <--- not religious, no problems with homosexuality et al, not even remotely bothered by it, but, if there is a strong case for this argument that sexuality is predetermined, I would like to hear it.

As far as what I've seen in the snippets, it's been described in terms of a 'likelihood percentage' - like other genetic traits that, theoretically you're predisposed to acquire, but then again might not get. That's the notion that I don't find compelling.

Thanks for the read.

Bludge.
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu May 30, 2013 8:43 pm

When did you decided you were straight, and how did you know?
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby gargantua » Thu May 30, 2013 9:14 pm

Bludgeon wrote:I'm interested because gay marriage has been in the news lately and the idea of predetermined sexuality has always been a notion that kind of bugs me.


Why does that bug you? Do you think that a person's sexuality is a conscious choice? I ask because if the idea of predetermined sexuality bugs you, it seems like you are indirectly trying to imply that it is instead a choice.
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby Bludgeon » Thu May 30, 2013 9:28 pm

gargantua wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:I'm interested because gay marriage has been in the news lately and the idea of predetermined sexuality has always been a notion that kind of bugs me.


Why does that bug you? Do you think that a person's sexuality is a conscious choice? I ask because if the idea of predetermined sexuality bugs you, it seems like you are indirectly trying to imply that it is instead a choice.

What's wrong with it either way? What bugs me is that it seems like there is a disconnect between the science and the political rhetoric about the concept. In politics, the notion is being paraded around as an absolute. I've yet to hear or read the same kind of absolutism from the scientific community. Therefore, I've asked if persons more familiar with the matter than myself, are aware of a more complete argument.
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby rabble » Thu May 30, 2013 9:35 pm

How about you answer Francis' questions? When did you decide to be straight? How did you know?
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby snoqueen » Fri May 31, 2013 12:01 am

I think the case for the genetic sexuality argument is more or less "I knew who I was pretty much since I was born" (regardless of sexual preference) so for that reason genetics is (are?) as good an explanation as any to the layperson.

In actuality I believe what science there is also supports the notion that hormonal influence in the womb might play a part. And epigenetics is such a new field we have no idea what explanations it might provide for sexuality or for many other aspects of life.

I don't see why any of this is worth hashing out. People are what they are and there's no good reason they need to explain themselves at all. It's like when a person is tall (or short) and somebody asks "why are you so tall (or so short)?" and all you want to do is swat them.
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby Bludgeon » Fri May 31, 2013 6:36 am

Well if it's an idea we're basing policy on, I think it's worth it to examine the question in more than just a superficial way.

To some extent it appears policy proponents are latching onto the epigenetics argument to sort of insulate their position from the ethical implications of their policy when it comes to issues like adoption, and at the same time making a rhetorical leap that is a departure from the science.

No?
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby fisticuffs » Fri May 31, 2013 7:46 am

Bludgeon wrote:Well if it's an idea we're basing policy on, I think it's worth it to examine the question in more than just a superficial way.

To some extent it appears policy proponents are latching onto the epigenetics argument to sort of insulate their position from the ethical implications of their policy when it comes to issues like adoption, and at the same time making a rhetorical leap that is a departure from the science.

No?


What ethical issues? Religion is not ethics.
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby rabble » Fri May 31, 2013 7:57 am

Bludgeon wrote:Well if it's an idea we're basing policy on, I think it's worth it to examine the question in more than just a superficial way.

When did you decide you were straight? How did you know?
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby wack wack » Fri May 31, 2013 8:15 am

Guess Bludge didn't hear y'all the first coupla times, let me see if I can get his attention...

HEY BLUDGEON!!!

WHEN DID YOU DECIDE YOU WERE STRAIGHT, AND HOW DID YOU KNOW?!?
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby Meade » Fri May 31, 2013 8:18 am

with liberty and justice for all.
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby jman111 » Fri May 31, 2013 8:23 am

An interesting conundrum, if sexuality is strictly genetic.
How does a trait such as homosexuality, which by its own nature appears to be evolutionarily self-restricting, survive in any species that exclusively reproduces sexually?
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby fisticuffs » Fri May 31, 2013 8:24 am

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby rabble » Fri May 31, 2013 8:24 am

jman111 wrote:An interesting conundrum, if sexuality is strictly genetic.
How does a trait such as homosexuality, which by its own nature appears to be evolutionarily self-restricting, survive in any species that exclusively reproduces sexually?

As a safety valve for overpopulation, maybe?

I don't believe there has ever been any population with a higher number of gays than straights and you'd need that to happen for it to be a threat.
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby jman111 » Fri May 31, 2013 8:30 am

rabble wrote:
jman111 wrote:An interesting conundrum, if sexuality is strictly genetic.
How does a trait such as homosexuality, which by its own nature appears to be evolutionarily self-restricting, survive in any species that exclusively reproduces sexually?

As a safety valve for overpopulation, maybe?

But if it is strictly genetic, how is it passed down? How does the trait "survive" for so many generations? Again, by its very nature, it seems to be self-limiting.

I'm no geneticist, but I suppose there would likely be a recessive aspect involved. I'm thinking of those genetic conditions which, when present, prevent the individual from reaching reproductive age. Those who express the trait are not able to pass it to the next generation, but those who carry the recessive gene are.
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