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NSA spying on everyone, everything

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby DCB » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:41 pm

The whistleblower has outed himself:
The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.

"I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.


Apparently he's hiding out in Hong Kong right now.
he remained hopeful his outing will not divert attention from the substance of his disclosures. "I really want the focus to be on these documents and the debate which I hope this will trigger among citizens around the globe about what kind of world we want to live in."

I'd like to believe that , but I'm too jaded.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby DCB » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:00 pm

Everyone agrees we must give the NSA total information awareness. By everyone, I mean our all-knowing elected officials who don't want us to know what kind of spying is going on. Now that Snowden has spilled the beans, they are scrambling to justify it.
Dianne Feinstein says that one of the two plots where Section 215 was used is the Mumbai attack.
What’s she referring to is tracking our own informant, David Headley.
And it didn’t prevent any attack. The Mumbai attack was successful.
Our own informant. A successful attack. That’s her celebration of success 215′s use.
So her assertion is we need to collect metadata on every single American because DEA can’t keep control of its informants.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby DCB » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:09 pm

Lots of good stuff about this issue on Empty Wheel.

The reaction from one of Wisconsin's own is priceless.
By far the most disingenuous, however, was Jim Sensenbrenner, who (as he has emphasized to the credulous journalists who served as his stenographers today) wrote the PATRIOT Act, who has remained in a senior position on House Judiciary Committee since that day, and who now claims to be shocked — shocked! — there is dragnet collection going on in the casino he built.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:20 pm

Just checking, are you allowed to talk about that, or are Democrats supposed to think it's awesome that the spying is going on, forget why they respect Feingold above other Democrats for being the only senator to vote against the patriot act, forget that it's still in place, and being used more aggressively than ever by an administration that will never let go of it so technically Democrats should not even bring it up since they should try not to bring up anything that makes the ruling administration look bad?

Watch the video kind of spooky.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby pjbogart » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:59 pm

Bludgeon, are you capable of discussing an issue without trying to turn it into a bludgeon to attack your political opponents? Since 2001, when the Patriot Act was passed (I like to think "under political duress") we've had Democratic Houses, Democratic Senates, Republican Houses, Republican Senates, Democratic Presidents and Republican Presidents. Not one of them, not one, has been blind to the intelligence gathering nor made any reasonable effort to curtail it.

Rather than spinning around in circles trying to point out why Democrats are probably more to blame than Republicans, couldn't we just figure out why in the hell no one in government seems to think this is a problem? Are these useful tools? Have they been effective? Is the whole "meta data" mining issue kind of overblown? Yeah, they take in a ton of data, but only a miniscule portion of it is actually acted upon. They know all of your texts, but unless you've been texting Pakistan or planning a Jihad on State Street, your texts were likely ignored. Or maybe not. Maybe all this information is being saved, just in case you step out of line and need to be reminded of the pig-tail porn that gave you some jollies in 2006.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this issue and although I think that sunshine makes a great disinfectant, sometimes it just causes the rats and cockroaches to scurry to a darker place. I recognize that there's an eerie, 1984-esque fog that we're suddenly aware of, but I'm not completely convinced that it's a bad idea to catch rats with night-vision goggles.

But if all you really want to discuss is how this damages Obama and makes Democrats look bad, I guess I can play that game. I can point out that it was signed into law by Bush, you can point out that Democratic Houses and Senates failed to scale it back and we can both argue until we're blue in the face about The Patriot Act without actually discussing The Patriot Act. But I don't really see the point in that.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:14 pm

pjbogart wrote:Rather than spinning around in circles trying to point out why Democrats are probably more to blame than Republicans, couldn't we just figure out why in the hell no one in government seems to think this is a problem?

While I was being coy, you've completely misread me. I *am* saying Democrats have been too ready to just look the other way with this administration. Personally in this case I'm able to say I'm disliking this president for exact same reason I disliked the former.

Is that wrong?
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby pjbogart » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:07 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
pjbogart wrote:Rather than spinning around in circles trying to point out why Democrats are probably more to blame than Republicans, couldn't we just figure out why in the hell no one in government seems to think this is a problem?

While I was being coy, you've completely misread me. I *am* saying Democrats have been too ready to just look the other way with this administration. Personally in this case I'm able to say I'm disliking this president for exact same reason I disliked the former.

Is that wrong?


Yes, because I suspect that your dislike of the former administration is a convenient charade. While he was in office you were a big fan. But since he can't run again and you have no need to prop him up, you can take a few swipes at him to seem more moderate, but no one here actually believes that you're a moderate, despite your valiant protestations.

But all of that is irrelevant assuming that you actually want to talk about the wisdom of NSA data mining. I take it that you're not a fan, and given that hindsight is 20/20, you weren't a fan in 2005 either. But surely you don't feel that all data collection is unconstitutional. Is your frustration that your data has been mined? Do you have any reason to believe that human eyes, as opposed to computers filtering vast amounts of data, have been looking at your phone, text or internet records? Data storage has come a long way in the past 12 years, so perhaps all of your information is being held hostage somewhere. Should we ban the surveillance or ban the storage? If we banned the storage, should we trust that the data is actually being discarded?

I think this issue deserves some serious thought, and I doubt very much that any of the ideas posed on TDPF will make their way to the halls of the NSA and affect any real changes, but it may help us sort out our feelings on security, privacy and government in general. Then again, we could just use this as an opportunity to throw shit at the wall and see if anything sticks.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:08 am

Why Americans Don’t Fear the NSA

When it comes to protecting us from terrorists, we trust our government will do the right thing.
...
Polling suggests the distinction people draw is between the narrow targeting of suspects versus targeting the broader public.
...
If the public is not outraged, it may very well be because they trust these lawmakers when they say these measures are necessary to stop terrorism. That's an aberration from the normal public attitude where more than three-quarters of Americans tell pollsters they don't trust government.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby wack wack » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:18 am

Why is this being called a leak? Isn't this more an exposé?

Exposing government behavior to its own public is not the same as leaking strategy to outsiders.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby snoqueen » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:54 am

I agree. Just because a lot of folks inferred or assumed it was going on doesn't mean we were properly notified. Several administrations, not just the current one, have overdone the secrecy thing and in that way lost potential public support.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Meade » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:14 am

Good article Hen V links to. Especially the conclusion:
In a perverse way it’s even possible to imagine that the NSA revelations, by stealing a few news cycles from developments on the IRS investigation and allowing the president to present himself as protector of the American people, may wind up helping the president's standing with the American people. Not even the NSA saw that coming.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:26 am

The Obama team is trying to flood the zone with scandal to create confusion, positioning him as someone who is "above it all". The problem is, in the past they could count on their media partners to cooperate. I'm not sure that's the case anymore.

His ace in the hole are the huge group of government peasants that he's created: the low-info Obamaphone, food stamp, "disability", illegal crowd that relies on Obama for their next check. That's all they care about and Obama's goons have been able to mobilize them into a semi-reliable voting block.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby jman111 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:38 am

Ned Flanders wrote:The Obama team is trying to flood the zone with scandal...

Damn, Ned, you are one funny sonofabitch at times.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby pjbogart » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:47 am

Ned Flanders wrote:His ace in the hole are the huge group of government peasants that he's created: the low-info Obamaphone, food stamp, "disability", illegal crowd that relies on Obama for their next check. That's all they care about and Obama's goons have been able to mobilize them into a semi-reliable voting block.


Channeling Cornbread, Ned? How long were you going to persist with your "Obamaphone" canard? Hasn't it been debunked about 1000 times now and yet you keep repeating it as though it's convincing? I certainly don't have one, and if I did I'd probably know that the program pre-dated "the regime". Come to think of it, I've never even collected unemployment, much less food stamps, welfare or disability. I'm not an "illegal", I don't work for the government, I don't belong to a union and yet, despite all of my wonderful Republican tendencies, I still vote Democrat. Am I an anomaly? Where exactly does this horde of leeching Obama supporters reside?

Do Republicans really believe that the base of the Democratic party are simply government leeches or is it simply a way to dismiss those who you disagree with as being unqualified to have a differing opinion? Because none of your criteria seems to describe the progressive posters here on this forum.
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:51 am

pjbogart wrote:
Ned Flanders wrote:His ace in the hole are the huge group of government peasants that he's created: the low-info Obamaphone, food stamp, "disability", illegal crowd that relies on Obama for their next check. That's all they care about and Obama's goons have been able to mobilize them into a semi-reliable voting block.


Channeling Cornbread, Ned? How long were you going to persist with your "Obamaphone" canard? Hasn't it been debunked about 1000 times now and yet you keep repeating it as though it's convincing? I certainly don't have one, and if I did I'd probably know that the program pre-dated "the regime". Come to think of it, I've never even collected unemployment, much less food stamps, welfare or disability. I'm not an "illegal", I don't work for the government, I don't belong to a union and yet, despite all of my wonderful Republican tendencies, I still vote Democrat. Am I an anomaly? Where exactly does this horde of leeching Obama supporters reside?

Do Republicans really believe that the base of the Democratic party are simply government leeches or is it simply a way to dismiss those who you disagree with as being unqualified to have a differing opinion? Because none of your criteria seems to describe the progressive posters here on this forum.

I would guess that the only thing worse than your reading comprehension is your breath.
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