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North Sherman Avenue Proposal

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?

Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:27 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Ninja wrote:That's hilarious.


What's hilarious is that we've now had 2 different article refuting your business loss claims and you've come up with nothing but your opinion. Now that's hilarious.


In my opinion, rain is going to make the ground wet. In my opinion, eliminating half the traffic passing by businesses on Sherman is going to be the end of a lot of businesses on Sherman. This is called common sense. I'm sorry I can't link to an article about it for you.

But for your edification, I'll address your articles. Where should I start? With the article about the NYC DOT study that showed that converting unused parking stalls to a protected (curbed) bike lane in Manhattan had a postiive impact on local business? Are you seriously trying to equate that with the elimination half the traffic lanes on a struggling commercial/commuter corridor in Madison, Wisconsin? That's not even remotely the same thing. There were no traffic lanes eliminated in that study. It focused on replacing unused parking spots with a bike lane in an established, thriving, centralized commercial strip in one of the most densely populated areas of the United States. Nothing about the study or the article is relevant to the discussion of North Sherman. Not even remotely.

Or do you mean the other article about eliminating on-street parking? Again, completely and totally irrelevant. We're not talking about eliminating unecessary parking spots on Sherman, we're talking about eliminating half the traffic lanes. But the second article does make some good points. For example:

So while parking may help an automobile-oriented commercial district better serve its customers, the study suggests that too much parking actually serves to decrease property values as compared to property values surrounding pedestrian-oriented commercial corridors.


Even if we were talking about just eliminating parking spots, the article makes clear that such a response is only appropriate in "pedestrian-oriented commercial corridors," which Sherman obviously is not. And if elimination of parking would hurt a corridor like Sherman, then imagine what the elimination of car traffic in general will accomplish. I don't think your articles say what you think they say.

Neither of those articles ever warranted refutation. In general you people are really, really bad at arguing this situation. You can't even get your story straight as to whether this will have no impact on car traffic, or a totally justified impact on car traffic to be diverted to Packers that will be made up for with shadow bikers and peds who will appear upon completion of the project.

I let the irrelevant articles slide without comment. I also let the snotty little reference to the smoking ban pass earlier in the thread, but the smoking ban did cost Sherman a couple of businesses, so that was a very stupid argument to attempt. And I also let the snotty little reference to Dorn Hardware closing pass earlier in the thread, but that's a example of the incredibly delicate economic situation I'm talking about, which again makes it an extremely stupid argument in favor of harming that economy, even a little bit.

And upon further review, I no longer find it hilarious that people try to frame this situation in dog whistle culture war rhetoric about big, mean, bully businesses. Instead I just think it's sad that people's critical thinking skills can be so easily derailed with that kind of nonsense. This has nothing to do with the liberal/conservative pissing contest that seems to be providing much of the subtext here. But for some reason everything in Madison seems to boil down to that liberal/conservative pissing contest. It's going to be an ugly summer, and I think that will help people become more pragmatic and focused on real urban problems. I just hope it doesn't cost the Northside too much in the meantime, because I suspect a lot of the ugly will be sited here.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby sylvie » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:44 pm

fennel wrote: "It seems to me that this reconfiguration has the potential to make the north end less of an archipelago, since it will have a more vital thread connecting it to the rest of city.
As it is now, Sherman is like fly-over country."

That's how a lot of us like it - it's like our own little village. When I think of friends who live out near Hilldale, I feel sorry for them.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby fennel » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:21 pm

sylvie wrote:That's how a lot of us like it - it's like our own little village. When I think of friends who live out near Hilldale, I feel sorry for them.
You feel sorry for your friends? Who do they feel sorry for?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:17 am

sylvie wrote:fennel wrote: "It seems to me that this reconfiguration has the potential to make the north end less of an archipelago, since it will have a more vital thread connecting it to the rest of city.
As it is now, Sherman is like fly-over country."

That's how a lot of us like it - it's like our own little village. When I think of friends who live out near Hilldale, I feel sorry for them.

I am sorry to report this to you Sylvie, but you have many neighbors who don't like it at all. They're the ones who feel so strongly about it that they have spent much energy and time to bring things to this point. This project was not initiated and nurtured by outsiders. It came from within your own neighborhood.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby barney » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:33 am

so, what's the timeline for getting everything done?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:38 pm

rabble wrote:This project was not initiated and nurtured by outsiders. It came from within your own neighborhood.


Absolute bullshit.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:58 pm

Please, enlighten me. The people I know who live in that neighborhood think they were part of the driving force behind it.

Since they're friends of mine and I know they don't want to think bullshit stuff, I'd like to tell them their thinking is bullshit but I need a little more than that.

Can you expand on it a little bit?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:03 pm

Ninja wrote:
rabble wrote:This project was not initiated and nurtured by outsiders. It came from within your own neighborhood.


Absolute bullshit.


http://madison.legistar.com/View.ashx?M ... 8FBD5E7577

An initial neighborhood meeting was held on October 11th, 2012 to learn from local residents and
property owners about operational problems and experiences using N Sherman Ave. The
meeting discussed citizen generated ideas to improve the safety and function of N Sherman Ave.


After reviewing residents’ concerns and analyzing the street operational characteristics, Madison
Traffic Engineering staff proposes a package of improvements to N Sherman Avenue including:
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:16 pm

Ninja wrote: In my opinion, eliminating half the traffic passing by businesses on Sherman is going to be the end of a lot of businesses on Sherman. This is called common sense. I'm sorry I can't link to an article about it for you.


Lauri Lee, the association’s president...

Business owners feel that “if they lose a 5 percent traffic count that gets moved over to Packers Avenue or other routes, we’re basically out-of-sight, out-of-mind. And 5 percent is roughly 850 cars a day,” Lee says


http://m.host.madison.com/ct/news/local ... f887a.html

So your common sense says they'll lose over 8000 cars. The business association president thinks it will be a little over 800.

Hmmmm, I don't think I trust your "common sense"
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:34 pm

Of course there were folks from the neighborhoods adjacent to Sherman involved in germinating this idea. The problem was that a small group pushed the idea without involving the entire northside, who will ultimately be affected. This small group knew that if they involved the larger group, they might not get their way. So, they failed to hold public meetings and most northsiders found out about the initiative near the end of the process. That, unfortunately, included the business folks on Sherman, as well as those of us who live all the way out on Sherman and use Sherman frequently. It's caused a lot of division, of course, and that might take years to repair. I think the outside bike advocates jumped in once they saw that this idea had a chance. There will be a reassessment of the plan in 2015 per the Common Council.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:53 pm

david cohen wrote: So, they failed to hold public meetings and most northsiders found out about the initiative near the end of the process.

Didn't Stebben just post the notes from a 2012 public meeting?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:16 pm

I can be more specific: they failed to hold NOTICED public meetings. For example, they didn't send out the usual postcards, they didn't post an announcement on the northside discussion listserv, they didn't run anything in the Northside News...so effectively most residents had no idea it was happening. There was ONLY an "initial" public meeting for Sherman Ave residents on 10/11/12 and then suddenly the lame duck alder pushed this baby through. It moved fast, with little input save for emails to the Common Council. However, that is in the past, with the exception of the ballot box and political/social action donations:)
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:44 pm

david cohen wrote: they didn't post an announcement on the northside discussion listserv


You mean like this from the list serv:


Study Planned for N. Sherman Avenue
Posted By:
satya_vadia
Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:31 am |
Options



For Immediate Release:
Sep 19, 2012
For More Information Contact:
Ald. Satya Rhodes-Conway
608-242-4426
Study Planned for N. Sherman Avenue

At last night's Common Council meeting, Alder Satya Rhodes-Conway, District 12, introduced a resolution authorizing the Traffic Engineering and City Engineering Divisions to embark on a study to examine how to improve the N. Sherman Avenue corridor for all users.

"I have heard from every neighborhood association on this corridor, and from numerous people who live on and near it, that safety is a huge concern" said Ald. Rhodes-Conway. "That includes safety for pedestrians, bicyclists and motorists."

N. Sherman Avenue is a standard arterial street serving Madison's Northside and carrying between 15,000 to 16,500 vehicles, 450 bicycles and 320 pedestrians on an average weekday. Over half the intersections on N. Sherman Avenue between Northport Drive and Roth Avenue have experienced at least one crash between 2007 and 2011, and there have been crashes at numerous mid-block sites. The Traffic Engineering Division, which tracks crash data across the city, recorded 170 total crashes between 2007 and 2011 in the corridor. Thirty-two percent were related to left turns from Sherman Avenue, and thirty-one percent were rear-end crashes. Six percent involved pedestrians and bicycles.

"Pedestrian safety is far and away the biggest traffic safety issue on N. Sherman Avenue," said North District Police Captain Cameron McLay. "This opinion is based on the fact that we identify traffic safety issues, not just by crash rates per location, but also for those areas more likely to have serious harm result as a result of traffic problems. With residential properties all along N. Sherman, businesses scattered along the way, and schools/parks both drawing child pedestrian activity across the street routinely, pedestrian safety is my greatest concern. The two lanes of traffic each way and its use as a commuter route makes this more stressful and potentially dangerous for pedestrians."

During a recent four-hour traffic enforcement effort at N. Sherman and Trailsway, the MPD TEST team stopped 40 vehicles for Failure to Yield to a Pedestrian at a controlled intersection/crosswalk.

The resolution will be voted on at the October 2 Common Council meeting. A public meeting on the study is scheduled for 6:30 p.m. on October 11 at the Warner Park Community Recreation Center, 1625 Northport Drive.



I question the other "non-notices"
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:52 pm

I didn't see that notice Stebben...clearly neither did a lot of folks...they still only held one public meeting though and then made the decision. Oh well, happy trails! As I noted, it will be revisited in 18 months or so. I hope everyone likes it but, given the circumstances, my guess is the division will continue.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:01 pm

rabble wrote:Please, enlighten me. The people I know who live in that neighborhood think they were part of the driving force behind it.

Since they're friends of mine and I know they don't want to think bullshit stuff, I'd like to tell them their thinking is bullshit but I need a little more than that.

Can you expand on it a little bit?


Sure. I've spoken to dozens of friends, neighbors and business owners on the Northside about this situation and have yet to encounter a single person who had heard a single thing about this plan until after the decision had been made.

There was one meeting, held without the normal notice to the neighborhood, back in October, and then it was over. This is something that's being done to my neighborhood, not by my neighborhood, or for my neighborhood.
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