MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Saturday, November 22, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 31.0° F  Overcast
Collapse Photo Bar

Automatic license plate readers

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby peripat » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:16 pm

Dangerousman wrote:It amazes me how many people are willing to simply submit to this shit and say you just have to accept it as inevitable. I don't turn control over my privacy and life so willingly. You can demand restrictions over the use or demand removal of this sort of technology. If you don't get it, demand removal of the people who approved it's use.

You know people made this very same type of complaint about things like having to register all births, needing licenses for various activities (driving, hunting, etc) requiring social security numbers etc. Not that easy to go off the grid any longer and this isn't an issue you're going to win on - unless you really think the Luddites are going to come out on top & we're going to do without everything from electricity to manufacturing. Unless our entire infrastructure is totally destroyed this isn't even part of the conversation any longer.
peripat
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1024
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:59 am

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby rabble » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:31 pm

I've said this already and I think it might have been in this very thread but I'll repeat it.

There is no way you can avoid being watched. The best we can do is avoid some of it and slow down some of the new advances.

Avoiding the surveillance net just makes you visible in another way. They don't know as much about where you've been but they know you're adjusting your lifestyle and as soon as they have a spare minute they'll take a closer look.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6449
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:54 pm

wack wack wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:It amazes me how many people are willing to simply submit to this shit and say you just have to accept it as inevitable. I don't turn control over my privacy and life so willingly. You can demand restrictions over the use or demand removal of this sort of technology. If you don't get it, demand removal of the people who approved it's use.


Just curious, do you object to the commercial use of such tools and techniques, or is it only governmental use which you find disturbing?


I object to both, but a governmental use is all the more disturbing since the government's purpose is (among other things) to "secure the blessings of liberty" and to secure the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"-- not to threaten the very things it is meant to protect.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:02 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote: They know where you car is going and where you have been.


Actually they only know that your car was at that spot at that particular time. Place of origin and destination would require some other technology, plus psychic powers.

Given enough data points, they can form a pretty good estimation of your travel history, routes you regularly take and destinations.


Again, it's sad that one might want to resort to standard anti-ambush and countersurveillance tactics to make it difficult for them.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:04 pm

pjbogart wrote:Yeah, and they'll probably know D-man is packin' heat before they even get out of their cars. There's nothing like sniffin' pavement on a routine traffic stop.


If they do know, then they're violating the law. And if i'm sniffin' pavement on a routine traffic stop you can be sure they'll pay for that too.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:15 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
pjbogart wrote:Yeah, and they'll probably know D-man is packin' heat before they even get out of their cars. There's nothing like sniffin' pavement on a routine traffic stop.


If they do know, then they're violating the law. And if i'm sniffin' pavement on a routine traffic stop you can be sure they'll pay for that too.


You are an instructor in firearms and concealed carry, and I believe an outspoken proponent of the right to carry. I'm pretty sure they can sus out you might be carrying a weapon without resorting to any questionable hijinks.

Dangerousman wrote:Again, it's sad that one might want to resort to standard anti-ambush and countersurveillance tactics to make it difficult for them.


I'd be shocked if there would be any effective counter surveillance tactics within a metropolitan area in a few years, if it's not already impossible. Too many cameras, to much data available to collect.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2614
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby gargantua » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:30 pm

peripat wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:It amazes me how many people are willing to simply submit to this shit and say you just have to accept it as inevitable. I don't turn control over my privacy and life so willingly. You can demand restrictions over the use or demand removal of this sort of technology. If you don't get it, demand removal of the people who approved it's use.

Unless our entire infrastructure is totally destroyed this isn't even part of the conversation any longer.


Cheer up. If you are under 50 or so, the infrastructure will be destroyed in your lifetime. Either by solar activity, or more likely by EMP by terrorist activity or by another nation. It never ceases to amaze me that we are so blind to our vulnerability. Our enemies, or nature, are not so afflicted. But hey, the automated plate readers won't work! Of course, neither will anyone's cars.
gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4284
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby wack wack » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:40 am

Dangerousman wrote:I object to both, but a governmental use is all the more disturbing since the government's purpose is (among other things) to "secure the blessings of liberty" and to secure the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"-- not to threaten the very things it is meant to protect.


Why do you seem to believe government is a completely autonomous "them"? Why do you feel no part of it?

Why would you fear something over which you have influence (government) more than you fear something over which you have no influence (business)?

Your concern is misplaced.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3172
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:33 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:You are an instructor in firearms and concealed carry, and I believe an outspoken proponent of the right to carry. I'm pretty sure they can sus out you might be carrying a weapon without resorting to any questionable hijinks.


And I'm pretty sure they cannot. Wisconsin's law was written specifically to prevent that from happening. The first indication to a police officer conducting a traffic stop or other encounter that a person holds a WI concealed carry license is either the person producing the license, or telling the officer that they have a license. The officer may then make an inquiry into the system to verify whether the person does indeed have a valid license. There is not to be any way where they can run the license plate and be automatically informed that it comes back to a licensee. If it happens, it is more than questionable hijinks, it is violation of the law.

As soon as concealed carry went into effect, trust me, we looked very carefully at feedback from licensees who had traffic stops to see whether there was any indication of the police officer having prior knowledge of licensee status. And we continue to investigate any questionable encounters. Happily there is no evidence of systemic abuse of the concealed carry database at this time.

If you want to see the details in the statute, I refer you to Chapter 175.60(12) and 175.60(12g).

I'll add that in Wisconsin the licensee has no obligation to inform a police officer that they carrying a concealed weapon. Some people have chosen to volunteer that information to the police and some have chosen not to do so. Personally, I wouldn't volunteer the information unless I was asked, then I would answer honestly. Or if it was inevitable that a weapon was going to be seen on me (e.g., getting out of the car to look at a burnt-out taillight while wearing no coat) I would give the officer the courtesy of making sure they know about my gun first from my verbal information and not their sight of it. Some police are made nervous by the presence of a gun and some are not. I can't see raising their stress level any more than necessary if I happen to have one of the nervous ones. The police are generally adept at detecting signs of nervousness in other people, and it helps to put them at ease if you are relaxed, friendly, confident and professional in your interactions with them.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby rabble » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:49 am

Dangerousman wrote:
wack wack wrote:Just curious, do you object to the commercial use of such tools and techniques, or is it only governmental use which you find disturbing?


I object to both, but a governmental use is all the more disturbing since the government's purpose is (among other things) to "secure the blessings of liberty" and to secure the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"-- not to threaten the very things it is meant to protect.

Case in point:
In light of accusations that its Smart TVs were sending private data to its servers, LG has admitted that some of its sets are behaving in ways they shouldn't be.
In a statement, the Korean manufacturer conceded that it has been collecting channel, TV platform and broadcast source data from some units, even when the feature was switched off. However, the company said that when the feature operates normally, it helps provide viewing recommendations to other LG Smart TV owners based on what they are watching. In response to claims it was also beaming over names of files located on connected USB keys, LG admits that it actually forms part of an upcoming service that searches the internet for detailed information on a particular film or TV show.

That's just to find out what your viewing habits are. Also tells them when you're probably home or not but that's just incidental.

Now put that kind of tech in your car, give it a gps and bluetooth. Put rfid chips in your id, credit cards, shoes, you name it.

Go ahead. Rent a car and buy a burn phone. See how much good that does you.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6449
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:53 am

wack wack wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:I object to both, but a governmental use is all the more disturbing since the government's purpose is (among other things) to "secure the blessings of liberty" and to secure the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"-- not to threaten the very things it is meant to protect.


Why do you seem to believe government is a completely autonomous "them"? Why do you feel no part of it?

Why would you fear something over which you have influence (government) more than you fear something over which you have no influence (business)?

Your concern is misplaced.


I believe I have a limited degree of influence, as does any individual, over how both government and private business conduct themselves. How is my concern misplaced? The greatest crimes against humanity have been carried out through government actions, not the actions of businesses. Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese Navy, not by Nikon. German extermination camps were created by the German government, not by Bayer Aspirin. Japanese American internment camps were set up at the order of Franklin Roosevelt, not Henry Ford. I would say my concern is placed dead center where it ought to placed.

I would turn around your claim that I don't feel that I am part of the government. It seems more likely that the government has increasingly forgotten that it is of, by and for the People.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:33 am

Dangerousman wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:You are an instructor in firearms and concealed carry, and I believe an outspoken proponent of the right to carry. I'm pretty sure they can sus out you might be carrying a weapon without resorting to any questionable hijinks.


And I'm pretty sure they cannot. Wisconsin's law was written specifically to prevent that from happening. The first indication to a police officer conducting a traffic stop or other encounter that a person holds a WI concealed carry license is either the person producing the license, or telling the officer that they have a license. The officer may then make an inquiry into the system to verify whether the person does indeed have a valid license. There is not to be any way where they can run the license plate and be automatically informed that it comes back to a licensee. If it happens, it is more than questionable hijinks, it is violation of the law.

As soon as concealed carry went into effect, trust me, we looked very carefully at feedback from licensees who had traffic stops to see whether there was any indication of the police officer having prior knowledge of licensee status. And we continue to investigate any questionable encounters. Happily there is no evidence of systemic abuse of the concealed carry database at this time.

If you want to see the details in the statute, I refer you to Chapter 175.60(12) and 175.60(12g).


You miss my point. I would assume in general that a police officer would not have access to the CC database. You personally on the other hand I believe have been involved in legal cases involving open carry which if I'm not mistaken involved an charges. Even if the charges were later dropped I wouldn't be shocked if the police still had that information in their database.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2614
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby snoqueen » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:49 am

Neighborhood policing is practiced in Madison. This involves the neighborhood officers knowing a lot about the people in their district or neighborhood, and not all of that is information gathered from public records. This is their job, and it's information intended to help them do the protect and serve thing for which they are responsible.

Now, I don't know anything about your relationship with the cops, but I'd be surprised if you are not known by sight to at least some of them and they've formed a notion of your habits and activities. At least some of the cops in my neighborhood know me on the same basis. I believe this is as it should be in Madison. I probably wouldn't feel the same if I was a Milwaukee resident.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11749
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby wack wack » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:53 am

Dangerousman wrote:Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese Navy, not by Nikon. German extermination camps were created by the German government, not by Bayer Aspirin. Japanese American internment camps were set up at the order of Franklin Roosevelt, not Henry Ford. I would say my concern is placed dead center where it ought to placed.


Perhaps, if this were 1950. The relationship between government and business is much different now.

Dangerousman wrote:I would turn around your claim that I don't feel that I am part of the government. It seems more likely that the government has increasingly forgotten that it is of, by and for the People.


I agree, it feels that way. Mostly because government is now by and for Big Business.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3172
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Automatic license plate readers

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:58 am

snoqueen wrote:At least some of the cops in my neighborhood know me on the same basis. I believe this is as it should be in Madison. I probably wouldn't feel the same if I was a Milwaukee resident.


Yeah, I'm perfectly fine with Milwaukee PD not being that familiar with me. They do some "community policing" but only in higher crime neighborhoods.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2614
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

cron
Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar