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Is Obama in the closet?

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Is Obama in the closet?

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:27 am

No, not that closet. He may be but that is for another thread.

I mean the liberal closet. Liberal in its original sense of maximizing personal liberty. A/K/A classical liberal, libertarian or minarchist.

I supported Obama in 2012 for this reason and discussed it at some length on this forum and elsewhere. I was torn between supporting him or Sarah Palin in 2008 but that is another story.

In the recent Virginia election the Libertarian Party candidate got 7% of the vote. This in spite of well known libertarians such as Ron Paul campaigning against him. 4-5 years ago most Virginians had probably hardly heard the word libertarian.

Ron Paul ran a pretty credible primary campaign on a straight liberal platform.

We have a number of self identified liberals in Congress who are not shy about making their voices heard. Paul, Lee, Cruz are probably the best known but there are others as well.

I think Obie is instrumental in this liberal groundswell in the US. I think his health care fiasco will do nothing but help reinforce that groundswell.

Progressives have been trying to get taxpayer funded health care for 100 years. They have never been successful but, like herpes, it keeps coming back. Perhaps the current fiasco will put a final nail in the coffin.

He has tried other things as well and made a mess of them. Gun control? He has probably done more to diminish support for gun control in the US than any 10 other people could.

Foreign policy? He, and Hilary, have screwed that up so badly that minding our own business (or "isolation" as some might call it) is starting to look like a good policy.

His overreach in other areas has had similar effects.

It took us 100 years to get where we are today and we are not going to unwind it overnight. Maybe not even in my lifetime. We are taking a lot of positive steps in the right direction, though and making progress.

So is Obama dismantling the progressive ideology because he is a closet liberal and he believes in what he is doing? Or is he doing it because he is incompetent and can't help himself?

I don't think it matters. What matters is the end result and Obie is on sold ground there.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Stella_Guru » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:56 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:No, not that closet. He may be but that is for another thread. I mean the liberal closet. Liberal in its original sense of maximizing personal liberty. A/K/A classical liberal, libertarian or minarchist........ We are taking a lot of positive steps in the right direction, though and making progress.

Yes, maximizing personal liberty with expanded government surveilance, reinforcing the worst police-state provisions of the Patriot Act, the NDAA, and attacking whistle-blowers. But hey, I guess a trillion to his buddies on Wall St. maximized their liberty.
Meanwhile, where is the liberty for my working class brothers and sisters? The possibility for a real public option looks as it has been killed, the Employee Free Choice Act is dead, more anti-labor "free trade" is on the horizon, entitlement "reform" looming, and all of this during a jobless "recovery." It is too bad the GOP hasn't given President Obama the liberty to do anything at all.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:07 am

Stella_Guru wrote:Yes, maximizing personal liberty with expanded government surveilance, reinforcing the worst police-state provisions of the Patriot Act, the NDAA, and attacking whistle-blowers. But hey, I guess a trillion to his buddies on Wall St. maximized their liberty.


Quite right, Stella. However, as I have said many times on this forum and elsewhere "worse is better"

In the short term Obie is making things worse, libertywise. However, by making them worse, he has caused a resistance to spring up that was not there before. The Tea Party is perhaps the most publicized face of it but hardly the only evidence.

It is like the old cliche about boiling the frog. Do it slow and it will just relax and go to sleep. Bush knew that as did Clinton, Bush, Reagan and other pols. McCain and Romney knew that too which is why I did not support either.

Turn up the heat, though and the frog wakes up and begins thinking "Hmmm... Getting warm in here. I better do something."

Obie and his crew have been turning up the heat and the American people have been waking up. Short term the prognosis is for more infringements on liberty.

Long term, 5-20 years, maybe sooner, I see a massive deconstruction of 100 years of progressivism and a return to preserving liberty as the key role of government.

Worse is better.

John Henry
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby wack wack » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:14 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:Long term, 5-20 years, maybe sooner, I see a massive deconstruction of 100 years of progressivism and a return to preserving liberty as the key role of government.

Worse is better.

John Henry


Oh, you're funny. Never in a million years, let alone 5-20.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:32 am

Stella_Guru wrote:Meanwhile, where is the liberty for my working class brothers and sisters? The possibility for a real public option looks as it has been killed, the Employee Free Choice Act is dead, more anti-labor "free trade" is on the horizon, entitlement "reform" looming, and all of this during a jobless "recovery." It is too bad the GOP hasn't given President Obama the liberty to do anything at all.


If by "public option" you mean taxpayer funded healthcare, I agree it is dead. Obie killed it so dead that it probably won't even be attempted again for 2-3 generations. I certainly view that as a positive accomplishment for liberty. I wish it were less painful but remember, it is only a "small minority" that are losing their health care. I am surprised that Obie hasn't told us we "have to break some eggs to make the omelet".

Thankfully, the scheme will probably be dead before those with employer plans lose theirs.

The other things you mentioned, free trade especially, seem like accomplishments for liberty as well.

Just as it took a Nixon to go to China, implement EPA and the rest of the alphabet soup of agencies, implement wage and price freezes and so on, perhaps it takes an Obama to unravel all the cruft that has built up over the years.

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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Sandi » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:34 am

The people don't actually like progressive candidates, they just like lost of candy ( free stuff ).

The Dems say vote for us, we will give you lots of candy. Reps say too much candy isn't good for you, vote for us.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:36 am

Sandi, do you equate health care with candy? If so, you get government candy.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Sandi » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:41 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Sandi, do you equate health care with candy? If so, you get government candy.


I don't equate healthcare for the poor as candy, no. But ACA isn't just for the poor, it is for everyone.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:48 pm

Sandi wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Sandi, do you equate health care with candy? If so, you get government candy.


I don't equate healthcare for the poor as candy, no. But ACA isn't just for the poor, it is for everyone.

The insurance offered through the ACA exchanges isn't free. Those who are not poor must pay. Or would you rather, like Ned, subsidy ER care?
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Sandi » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:50 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:The insurance offered through the ACA exchanges isn't free. Those who are not poor must pay. Or would you rather, like Ned, subsidy ER care?


No it isn't, it costs more, and in some cases a lot more. Also in a few cases it is cheaper.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:52 pm

Sandi, make up your mind. First you say it is free, then you say it is costly.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Sandi » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:05 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Sandi, make up your mind. First you say it is free, then you say it is costly.


Pay attention Henry. Yes the progressives like to hand out free perks and stuff. That doesn't mean that I am telling you any and all government programs are free.

Keep trying for that straw man.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:10 pm

Sandi, you are all over the place with your arguments, so let's cut to the chase. You don't like the ACA, so what would you substitute in its place? Nothing is not an answer.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Stella_Guru » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:18 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:Long term, 5-20 years, maybe sooner, I see a massive deconstruction of 100 years of progressivism and a return to preserving liberty as the key role of government.

Could you explain what you perceive to be the deeper causes of the deconstruction you describe? Certainly you don't think it is wholly the result of incompetence and random events.
Last edited by Stella_Guru on Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Obama in the closet?

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:21 pm

Sandi wrote:Yes the progressives like to hand out free perks and stuff.


And you don't think conservatives do the same thing. The difference is that their perks and free stuff go to the wealthy with the asinine notion that it will trickle down to the poor.
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