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Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:27 pm

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Immigration reform advocates are done playing nice with House Republicans. After holding their fire for years at the urging of the Obama administration, several immigration reform groups now plan to unleash their anger at the right.A new, more aggressive campaign kicks off Tuesday, when these groups say they will begin confronting Republican lawmakers at public appearances, congressional hearings and events back in home districts. The goal: Shame Republicans in swing districts into taking up the issue — or make them pay at the ballot box in November.

On my mind is the question: so the argument is Mexican immigrants want to nationalize here in far greater numbers than long established policy permits; so they should be able to. And the reason they want to come is better economic opportunity / better standard of living / more and better jobs (than Mexico, anyway). And the reason Mexico has less economic opportunity / worse standard of living / less, worse jobs is that the governments they have continued to elect are so corrupt they're incapable of solving Mexico's own basic problems such as: * taking advantage of their vast agricultural assets; * stamping out a nationwide criminal cartel that traffics in everything from military grade weapons to hardcore drugs, to sex slaves; * taking advantage of their lack of strangulating labor laws to build and develop what ought to be a thriving industrial base *** Basically the Mexican citizenry has voted itself into the poor house, propping up one corrupt incompetent government after another for decade after decade to the point that they are strangled by crime, unemployment, mismanaged resources and stagnation, and a withering currency.

And the solution to this problem is that we legalize as many as possible so they can come over here and vote for our government. What's the theory: "second time's the charm?"

Critical Thinking Fail.

The unacknowledged reality:

The real impetus for the great move northward, and the push for amnesty is the promise of electoral clientel-base treats.

1. Social Security retirement benefits for many people who barely worked a day here.

2 .US Welfare benefits that are better and more valuable than Mexican employment benefits.

3. Priority hiring status for minority job applicants; priority job promotion status for minority applicants.

4. Priority credit status for minority loan applications.

5. A completely blank slate at any age / under nearly any circumstances, in competition with a U.S. citizenry razed by eroding statute-of-limitations laws in the information age.

I'm not seeing a civil right's issue I'm seeing a personal accounting issue and the obvious appeal of being able to move to the head of the line in a U.S. society that is otherwise stagnating at a time when wages are shrinking and the effective employment rate is historically poor, food prices are rising and hard working people are being chased out of their jobs and their homes by draconian federal policy.

I call it a human tragedy just waiting to happen.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby jman111 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:56 pm

Bludgeon wrote:I call it a human tragedy just waiting to happen.

I call "it" xenophobia.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:01 pm

More right-wing political fear mongering. Tell me how someone get Social Security by barely working a day. You post is pure bullshit.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby kurt_w » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:11 pm

Bludgeon wrote:5. A completely blank slate at any age / under nearly any circumstances, in competition with a U.S. citizenry razed by eroding statute-of-limitations laws in the information age.

[...]

I call it a human tragedy just waiting to happen.

Am I the only one getting a sort of MadMind-ish vibe from Bludgeon here?

I'm trying hard to make sense of this, and all I can get from it is the idea that poor immigrants from a third-world country are at an unfair advantage because they're a "blank slate," while Bludgeon, who presumably grew up in the comparatively wealthy and technologically advanced first world is at a disadvantage because the existence of the Internet is making it difficult to conceal ... something ... that he/she would rather employers didn't know about.

Is there some other possible interpretation of this that I'm just missing?
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby jman111 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:20 pm

Sounds like maybe he wants that second chance that he's so opposed to for others.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:49 pm

kurt_w wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:5. A completely blank slate at any age / under nearly any circumstances, in competition with a U.S. citizenry razed by eroding statute-of-limitations laws in the information age.

[...]

I call it a human tragedy just waiting to happen.

I'm trying hard to make sense of this, and all I can get from it is the idea that poor immigrants from a third-world country are at an unfair advantage because they're a "blank slate... Is there some other possible interpretation of this that I'm just missing?

Yes you have missed the opportunity of not being a blind, unimaginative fool unable to think in any other than subjective terms. Don't think of one person, think of millions of persons and what on average has become of their personal record since the crash of the economy and consider that every stain and every mark is something that (economy be damned) the permanent citizen is liable and accountable for on a permanent basis, from one end of the country to the next; in absence of any real statute of limitations, there are any number of potential disqualifiers on the names of the working class.

You could use a better compass in general terms, but I suppose they do hire a lot of clueless buffoons down at the UW. After all, they have a few hundred slush funds to waste, despite all their whining.

It's a working class unfair advantage on at least a dozen levels, including the advantage of being a blank slate when the truth is, god knows what's on the record of some of these individuals.

"Nothing", you blindly assume, Ponce de Leon? Something or nothing, that's a leg up.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby HawkHead » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:52 pm

I love the dichotomy that Mexicans are:
1. Too lazy and take all of our money through welfare, ss, food stamps etc...
2. Take our jobs
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:03 pm

HawkHead wrote:I love the dichotomy that Mexicans are:
1. Too lazy and take all of our money through welfare, ss, food stamps etc...
2. Take our jobs

Well there are a lot of lazy jobs in the public sector and neo-public education sectors where there are plenty of make-work positions for productivity-quota loving employees of all backgrounds; where priority hiring statuses are followed particularly diligently, but that's neither here nor there.

What you're really missing is the lapse of time between the second stereotype and the first stereotype. You're also missing the vastly different political context and practical conditions that separate what you mistakenly perceive as ironic.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:08 pm

Bludgeon wrote:neo-public education sectors

Huh? Is that some sort of new right-term you found or did you make that up yourself?
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby snoqueen » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:11 pm

Trying a couple searches, I can't find that term much of anyplace. He made it up, I say.

However, if you make something up you get to define it. That's an internet law. He needs to define it right here, before someone else does.

Bludg, you are never going to send eleven million people, give or take, back to Mexico. Come up with a more plausible strategy and we can talk.

Meantime, what I am seeing is this. The Rs don't want citizenship for Mexican immigrants because they will vote Democratic.

If the Rs were smarter and not all wrapped up in internal struggles, they'd be actively in the race to extend citizenship to as many Mexican immigrant residents as possible. It could turn the next round of elections and more elections to come, because the new citizens would not forget who helped them. This would be doubly true if they enacted other helpful legislation for lower income citizens.

The Rs are being very shortsighted, and forgetting any humanitarian principals they ever had. All they've got left is trying to deny the vote to as many potential D voters as they can. It won't work for ever.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:24 pm

Bludgeon wrote:but I suppose they do hire a lot of clueless buffoons down at the UW. After all, they have a few hundred slush funds to waste, despite all their whining.


When you get trollish comments like this, why respond? It's not as though you want a debate with substance. You just want to push people buttons with right wing talking points.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:28 pm

snoqueen wrote:Bludg, you are never going to send eleven million people, give or take, back to Mexico. Come up with a more plausible strategy and we can talk.

Meantime, what I am seeing is this. The Rs don't want citizenship for Mexican immigrants because they will vote Democratic.

If the Rs were smarter and not all wrapped up in internal struggles, they'd be actively in the race to extend citizenship to as many Mexican immigrant residents as possible. It could turn the next round of elections and more elections to come, because the new citizens would not forget who helped them. This would be doubly true if they enacted other helpful legislation for lower income citizens.

The Rs are being very shortsighted, and forgetting any humanitarian principals they ever had. All they've got left is trying to deny the vote to as many potential D voters as they can. It won't work for ever.


Is it not plausible? I'm actually for a path to citizenship, under any circumstance where the five topics I covered above are mitigated.

But I disagree with this premise. Implausible in what sense? What's the discouraging factor? The cost? The prohibitively large degree of manpower required?

What's more expensive - deporting someone once (even a dozen times) on a three hour bus ride, or paying food, shelter and welfare benefits for decades?

Looking at the question dispassionately, if a person is being honest with themselves, deportation is by far the least expensive.

Either way you have to admit there's a certain injustice to flooding a dead job market with 12 million suddenly legal criminals who now get to move to the front of the line in terms of jobs, promotions, CRI loans to buy houses when other hard working people are being forced out of them, and completely blank slates when everybody else in the country has to be judged on their record.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:39 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Is it not plausible? I'm actually for a path to citizenship, under any circumstance where the five topics I covered above are mitigated.

I think you mean the five straw men you made up. I challenged you on your Social Security assersion. It's time for you to back it up.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:45 pm

Bludgeon wrote:But I disagree with this premise. Implausible in what sense? What's the discouraging factor? The cost? The prohibitively large degree of manpower required?

What's more expensive - deporting someone once (even a dozen times) on a three hour bus ride, or paying food, shelter and welfare benefits for decades?


It's a stupid question based on the false premise that we are going to have to feed and shelter them, but paying for the workforce needed to track down and deport 12 million people (and the next 12 million, and the 12 million after that) and then ship them back to Mexico, for decades, is going to be far more expensive then what they might need in societal support.
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Re: Politico: Immigration groups turn to anger

Postby snoqueen » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:54 pm

And while you're considering those questions, look at this part:

... completely blank slate at any age / under nearly any circumstances, in competition with a U.S. citizenry razed by eroding statute-of-limitations laws in the information age.


What on earth were you trying to say here? What is a citizenry "razed by statute-of-limitations laws?" This is nothing but a pile of words.

Same with most of the other points you thought you were making, but that's particularly obscure.
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