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Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

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Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:58 am

It really looks like the Supreme Court is going to allow companies with religious objections to deny contraceptive coverage to their employees.

Both sides have made slippery slope arguments. I doubt this case is actually going to set in motion more foolishness, like companies denying other medical procedures based on religious views. The courts won't allow it.

The actual impact of a lousy ruling in the Hobby Lobby case will be tiny. A small number of employed women will pay for contraceptives out-of-pocket. It's upsetting and wrong-headed, but not a tragedy.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:02 pm

Ruth Marcus makes the opposite argument:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html

I'm on her side on all the principles here, I just don't see any of the bad consequences playing out.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:04 pm

Contraceptive coverage? Fox News has been telling me this is about abortion.

If corporations are people, I guess they get to have religion as well That's not fucking stupid at all. Nope, not one bit.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby rabble » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:04 pm

Huckleby wrote:The actual impact of a lousy ruling in the Hobby Lobby case will be tiny. A small number of employed women will pay for contraceptives out-of-pocket. It's upsetting and wrong-headed, but not a tragedy.

Unless it's used as a precedent for religion-based discrimination, as in "I don't have to serve gays, divorced people, people on welfare, or people of the wrong [insert favorite descriptive term here] because it's an offense against my religion. Those people don't have to pay for promiscuous harlot employees, I don't have to sell my wares to those evil minions of Satan!"
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:08 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Contraceptive coverage? Fox News has been telling me this is about abortion.


There is controversy about whether certain contraceptives are "abortifacients" - induce miscarriage. I can't figure out the truth on this point, probably cause I don't care.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:16 pm

rabble wrote:Unless it's used as a precedent for religion-based discrimination, as in "I don't have to serve gays, divorced people, people on welfare, or people of the wrong [insert favorite descriptive term here] because it's an offense against my religion. Those people don't have to pay for promiscuous harlot employees, I don't have to sell my wares to those evil minions of Satan!"


Ya, but I don't think the Hobby Lobby will be used as a precedent.

Contraceptives are a very peculiar, perfect storm of controversy. Most Americans don't really see it as a medical issue, they may be wrong on this point, but it is more of a personal and moral choice to many. Plus the abortion confusion. Plus the fact that a giant, mainstream religion like Catholicism is pissed-off.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:18 pm

Huckleby wrote:
rabble wrote:Unless it's used as a precedent for religion-based discrimination, as in "I don't have to serve gays, divorced people, people on welfare, or people of the wrong [insert favorite descriptive term here] because it's an offense against my religion. Those people don't have to pay for promiscuous harlot employees, I don't have to sell my wares to those evil minions of Satan!"


Ya, but I don't think the Hobby Lobby will be used as a precedent.

Contraceptives are a very peculiar, perfect storm of controversy. Most Americans don't really see it as a medical issue, they may be wrong on this point, but it is more of a personal and moral choice to many. Plus the abortion confusion. Plus the fact that a giant, mainstream religion like Catholicism is pissed-off.


Most Americans? I think most Americans realize birth control is cheaper than birth. I'd also like to think most Americans realize that covering contraception is not the same thing as mandating it. Corporations already have too much power, now they get to make your medical decisions. And if you don't think this will be used as precedent for all sorts of asinine laws, you're a fool.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:19 pm

Huckleby wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:Contraceptive coverage? Fox News has been telling me this is about abortion.

There is controversy about whether certain contraceptives are "abortifacients" - induce miscarriage. I can't figure out the truth on this point, probably cause I don't care.

Hobby Lobby claims IUDs cause abortion. Other anti-abortion groups go farther, saying that even the contraceptive pill is an abortifacient. Pro-Life Wisconsin, for an example.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby rabble » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:26 pm

Huckleby wrote:
rabble wrote:Unless it's used as a precedent for religion-based discrimination, as in "I don't have to serve gays, divorced people, people on welfare, or people of the wrong [insert favorite descriptive term here] because it's an offense against my religion. Those people don't have to pay for promiscuous harlot employees, I don't have to sell my wares to those evil minions of Satan!"


Ya, but I don't think the Hobby Lobby will be used as a precedent.

These are people who think gay marriage will lead to people marrying ducks. Their definition of "logic," and apparently the courts', is fluid.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby DCB » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:27 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Corporations already have too much power, now they get to make your medical decisions. And if you don't think this will be used as precedent for all sorts of asinine laws, you're a fool.

The precedent - establishing arbitrary corporate control over people - is the whole point of the case.

And he is definitely a fool.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby HawkHead » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:32 pm

Huckleby wrote:
rabble wrote:Unless it's used as a precedent for religion-based discrimination, as in "I don't have to serve gays, divorced people, people on welfare, or people of the wrong [insert favorite descriptive term here] because it's an offense against my religion. Those people don't have to pay for promiscuous harlot employees, I don't have to sell my wares to those evil minions of Satan!"


Ya, but I don't think the Hobby Lobby will be used as a precedent.

Contraceptives are a very peculiar, perfect storm of controversy. Most Americans don't really see it as a medical issue, they may be wrong on this point, but it is more of a personal and moral choice to many. Plus the abortion confusion. Plus the fact that a giant, mainstream religion like Catholicism is pissed-off.


The Catholics aren't pissed off. Their hospitals have been providing birth control to their employees for years with nothing said about it. Even the Pope has commented on this.

This is strictly a group of Anti-Abortion members trying to limit another way to stop making babies.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:32 pm

fisticuffs wrote: I'd also like to think most Americans realize that covering contraception is not the same thing as mandating it.


Ya, but you're mandating that the companies provide it, that is the issue.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby HawkHead » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:37 pm

Huckleby wrote:
fisticuffs wrote: I'd also like to think most Americans realize that covering contraception is not the same thing as mandating it.


Ya, but you're mandating that the companies provide it, that is the issue.


We also mandate that you can't kick black people out of your restaurant or make them sit in the back of the bus.

This ruling is trying to overturn the precedent regarding the separation of church and state and what that doctrine is really supposed to achieve.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby HawkHead » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:39 pm

No matter how you try to slice it, businesses are not religious entities even if their owner subscribes to a specific faith.
Last edited by HawkHead on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hobby Lobby case a big deal?

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:39 pm

Huckleby wrote:
fisticuffs wrote: I'd also like to think most Americans realize that covering contraception is not the same thing as mandating it.


Ya, but you're mandating that the companies provide it, that is the issue.


You could say the same thing about any medical procedure or medication at it would still be just as ridiculous. If your personal beliefs as a business owner make you against contraception then you have the right not to take it. Your rights as a business owner end there in regards to my rights to my health care that I earn with my labor.
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